Latest Naruto Manga Discussion [Spoiler]

[Kinara Uzumaki]

Ah! The chapters are getting worse!!!!!!!

Honestly.........the whole flashback scene doesn't make sense at all. Like the opinions expressed above, Obito turning rogue because Kakashi let Rin die is nothing but a big baloony. It's most likely to be someone with the memories of Obito and his single Sharingan eye or Obito's remains somehow maintained by Hashirama's regenerating technique and his mind manipulated by someone else. ARGH! It keeps getting more confusing by the page!!!!!!

[saminyt]

We already know why he gave up his eyes to nagato, he simply wanted to be revived to his original self by another person. And how do you know he found his new eyes AFTER getting blind? What if he already found some spares before doing so? Also there's a bit of mistranslation going on between mangastream and mangareader, the former is saying madara has other eyes while the latter is saying he has only one.

Anyway do take note that this is just obito's flashback, madara's background is a completely different story and a flashback within a flashback would just be too silly imo. Besides that, doesn't seem like madara's doing much brainwashing here. I mean just look at the guy, he's literally an old relic! o.O

He's being quite blunt with his words and he said it twice in a row that obito will have to pay back the debt of saving him. From what it appears, I think he's being rather desperate for it than suggesting he was pre-scheming to find an uchiha to work with. His current condition shows he's nowhere near strong enough to force someone into working for him. Again this is hinting that it was all pure chance he found obito. After all, why couldn't he have found someone sooner? Back when he was at least capable of moving around and not bound by the roots of a senju tree? My guess is that he didn't think that far ahead, that his main concern was to simply get back his prime self after being defeated by hashirama.

Speaking of his prime, does anyone else realize how impossible it is to defeat him now in his edo tensei state? He's got an immortal body, unlimited chakra and is on par with the strongest ninja of all time! Either someone like orochimaru needs to pull a dirty move or hashirama should make an appearance. It wouldn't be really farfetched to say that after getting his body abused throughout the years, he finally has the chance for payback.

What u have said here is very logical and just by reading your post, I can see that u have grasped the situation really well. Yes, I also think that Madara had a spare eye before losing his own. And about the typo, I think mangareader's one is the correct one coz if Madara had more eyes, it's silly to just stick with one. And about giving the eyes to Nagato, we all know that it was duo to his plan to be revived by the rinnegan's power. But I think what Leviathan wanted to say is that why give the rinnegan to a child and not someone else. I think I will let Kishi do the explanation on this part.

I also liked that part where u mentioned that Madara was in a state of desperation and him meeting Obito was purely coincidental. This also explains why Obito was selected by Madara to be Tobi (There was no other candidate).

And about Madara's prime, yes he seems unbeatable at the moment. And Sasuke and Orochimaru's appearance is crucial at this point. But I dont think that Hashirama is gonna make an appearance(though his powers might be used to defeat Madara at the end). So its only a matter of time till the final battle begins.

Ah! The chapters are getting worse!!!!!!!

Honestly.........the whole flashback scene doesn't make sense at all. Like the opinions expressed above, Obito turning rogue because Kakashi let Rin die is nothing but a big baloony. It's most likely to be someone with the memories of Obito and his single Sharingan eye or Obito's remains somehow maintained by Hashirama's regenerating technique and his mind manipulated by someone else. ARGH! It keeps getting more confusing by the page!!!!!!

With the recent advancements in the manga, it is confirmed that Tobi is Obito mind and soul. So there is no memory implanting or mind controlling here (I'm 99% sure about it). And yes, going with this scenario is a little far-fetched but what can we do, it is Kishi's manga after all. He can take it in any direction he wants.So the best thing to do is just wait and see how Kishi explains it.

Edited September 19, 2012 by saminyt

[Gedo Mazo]

This was one good chapter,finally getting things answered.

[Leviathan]

Speaking of his prime, does anyone else realize how impossible it is to defeat him now in his edo tensei state? He's got an immortal body, unlimited chakra and is on par with the strongest ninja of all time! Either someone like orochimaru needs to pull a dirty move or hashirama should make an appearance. It wouldn't be really farfetched to say that after getting his body abused throughout the years, he finally has the chance for payback.

And about Madara's prime, yes he seems unbeatable at the moment. And Sasuke and Orochimaru's appearance is crucial at this point. But I dont think that Hashirama is gonna make an appearance(though his powers might be used to defeat Madara at the end). So its only a matter of time till the final battle begins.

To tell u the truth i don't think even hashirama making an appearence will stop madara. You will know what i mean if you had seen the "never before seen" footage about Hashirama vs Madara in the new Naruto ps3 game. Madara in my opinion took it easy on hashirama....the guy didn't even use one single mangekyo jutsu. The only reason hashirama won was because he had the wood jutsus capable enough to suppress a bijuu. But in the present condition the situation is completely different. Madara has the rinnegan and wood jutsu something he didn't have when he fought hashirama. The rinnegan in itself will make a huge difference here. So the conclusion is simple.....not even hashirama will stand a chance against madara in his present condition.

[Bardon]

Speaking of his prime, does anyone else realize how impossible it is to defeat him now in his edo tensei state? He's got an immortal body, unlimited chakra and is on par with the strongest ninja of all time! Either someone like orochimaru needs to pull a dirty move or hashirama should make an appearance. It wouldn't be really farfetched to say that after getting his body abused throughout the years, he finally has the chance for payback.

And about Madara's prime, yes he seems unbeatable at the moment. And Sasuke and Orochimaru's appearance is crucial at this point. But I dont think that Hashirama is gonna make an appearance(though his powers might be used to defeat Madara at the end). So its only a matter of time till the final battle begins.

To tell u the truth i don't think even hashirama making an appearence will stop madara. You will know what i mean if you had seen the "never before seen" footage about Hashirama vs Madara in the new Naruto ps3 game. Madara in my opinion took it easy on hashirama....the guy didn't even use one single mangekyo jutsu. The only reason hashirama won was because he had the wood jutsus capable enough to suppress a bijuu. But in the present condition the situation is completely different. Madara has the rinnegan and wood jutsu something he didn't have when he fought hashirama. The rinnegan in itself will make a huge difference here. So the conclusion is simple.....not even hashirama will stand a chance against madara in his present condition.

No, just...no.

1, That game ain't canon. (each cutscene was nothing more than an easter egg and had elements differing from both manga and anime)

2, The storyline it followed was BEFORE the war even happened.

3, The release dates of that game were February 23 (JPN) and March 13 (US), while the current chapters going at that time were these:

• http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/576
  
• http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/578
  

Aka the time where madara hasn't revealed his megazord sized susano'o and yeah did I mention that this game was under development since late-mid 2011? >>

4, Lastly, madara himself has stated this to the 5 kages multiple times throughout their fight that only Hashirama could've stopped him. He had NO reason to hold back. Even suggesting such a notion sounds quite retarded. (no offense)

Edited September 21, 2012 by Bardon

[Kyle_Dimetri]

far fetched, far fetched, far fetched. Thats all i can say about the latest manga

[Leviathan]

Here's the link to the naruto manga chapter 603: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/603

So the last couple of chapters have been totally about obito....how he survived and how he knows madara. Today's chapter seemed more like a prologue than anything....you know we are getting clues on Obito becoming Tobi, basically on the outside, in this chapter. Guess we need to wait a couple of more weeks to completely understand how Obito came to be Tobi.

[Bardon]

*sigh*

Its just as I feared.....

Mr Trollmoto is pulling a second nagato on this. After all the crap obito pulled as tobidara, now we get to see that he was simply a result of bad influence. This is exactly why I wished obito wouldn't be the one behind the mask. And these last 2 chapters have been sooo out of touch compared to everything else regarding madara. It was hard enough seeing obito's good side getting more service but now even the zetsu are shown as too friendly.

Heck now that I think about it, there never really was a TRUE bad guy in the entire series. Almost everyone who turned into an antagonist was just because of some overwhelming event that made em obsessive or because of someone's misguidance over a certain goal. And in this case, from what both zetsus are saying.....they never really believed themselves or madara to be the bad guys. Even if they start causing mass destruction via giant bijuus and kill babies, it doesn't matter to them. They honestly think their actions will be justified once this dreamland tsukoyomi plan finally comes to completion as in that realm everybody will be happy and STAY happy.

Rather than calling em a group of baddies, I think being termed as a quack pack would be more appropriate.

[RikuoAmero]

*sigh*

Its just as I feared.....

Mr Trollmoto is pulling a second nagato on this. After all the crap obito pulled as tobidara, now we get to see that he was simply a result of bad influence. This is exactly why I wished obito wouldn't be the one behind the mask. And these last 2 chapters have been sooo out of touch compared to everything else regarding madara. It was hard enough seeing obito's good side getting more service but now even the zetsu are shown as too friendly.

Heck now that I think about it, there never really was a TRUE bad guy in the entire series. Almost everyone who turned into an antagonist was just because of some overwhelming event that made em obsessive or because of someone's misguidance over a certain goal. And in this case, from what both zetsus are saying.....they never really believed themselves or madara to be the bad guys. Even if they start causing mass destruction via giant bijuus and kill babies, it doesn't matter to them. They honestly think their actions will be justified once this dreamland tsukoyomi plan finally comes to completion as in that realm everybody will be happy and STAY happy.

Rather than calling em a group of baddies, I think being termed as a quack pack would be more appropriate.

I guess it all depends on what you mean by bad guy. If you're thinking a power-hungry villain, like say Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars, that is a true out and out villain. Even though, in Episode III, he says that once the Jedi are wiped, "then we will have...peace", clearly he is lying, as he's the guy who started the Clone Wars in the first place. That is about as evil a villain as you can get.

There isn't really anybody like that in Naruto, there isn't any true villain who desires power for power's sake. Orochimaru for example, even though he did hideous experiments and committed all sorts of other crimes, didn't desire power. He merely wanted to learn all the jutsu in the world: to that end, he determined he would need to become immortal (so he'd have time to learn all the jutsu) and to become immortal, you have to do some very evil things.

Oh yeah...who exactly here first predicted that Obito would be using a Zetsu body for his Tobi persona?

[-Zero-]

Naruto 604 is up: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/604

I got nothing else to say other than the fact that page 19 threw a "HOLYYYY SHEEET" at my face.....

[RikuoAmero]

Oh god....

Kishi...how are you going to fix this?

So Obito wraps himself in a Zetsu clone body, and finds Kakashi killing Rin with his Chidori.

There are only two reasons for Kakashi to do that

1) Rin is actually a spy or agent for one of Konoha's enemies, thus he's justified in killing her.

2) He was tricked in some way by one of the jounin or ANBU that Zetsu says are all around the place.

However, that's not all that's bad.

This is Kakashi killing his friend and team-mate Rin. What happens if you kill your friend? Oh yeah, you awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan...except Kakashi doesn't awaken his own until about sixteen years later!

Plus, the only thing that can happen in the next issue is that Obito will freak out and attempt to kill Kakashi in revenge. Obviously, since Kakashi survived to adulthood, he doesn't die. So...why then is Kakashi surprised at the Fourth War that Obito is still alive?

Lastly...who the fuck cares for Obito? To put this in context, think of Star Wars. We have a villain there, Darth Vader, who in the end sacrifices his life to save his son. Interest was so huge that George Lucas decided to reveal the man behind the mask, and tell a story that explained what led to Anakin Skywalker becoming Darth Vader.

Here...Obito is shown in a short prequel chapter and then is never mentioned again. At the time, it was clear to readers that he served merely to answer the question "Where and how did Kakashi get his Sharingan eye?" He accomplished nothing else, ditto with Rin (who exactly did even less). She had no importance to the overall plot of Naruto at all, beyond being the girl who gets kidnapped and has to be saved by the man. Once Kakashi Gaiden was over, Obito and Rin were forgotten about, having had no real influence.

Now suddenly, its revealed that the man in the mask is actually a character we've seen only once before? I'm trying to think of other man in the mask stories: let's see, Red Hood in the Batman comics turns out to be Jason Todd, the second Robin (not a one-shot character). Battlestar Galactica had One manipulating the human survivors by pretending to be a priest.

I'm sure there are other examples, but basically, what I'm saying is: in a story where you have a masked figure running around manipulating events, you don't have him pull off his mask to reveal he was actually a character shown once SEVEN YEARS AGO! (The Kakashi Gaiden manga chapters were released in Japan in 2005)

[Igel666]

I wonder when Sasuke is going to appear and joins the battle together with naruto.... hopefully...

[Bardon]

I guess it all depends on what you mean by bad guy. If you're thinking a power-hungry villain, like say Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars, that is a true out and out villain. Even though, in Episode III, he says that once the Jedi are wiped, "then we will have...peace", clearly he is lying, as he's the guy who started the Clone Wars in the first place. That is about as evil a villain as you can get.

There isn't really anybody like that in Naruto, there isn't any true villain who desires power for power's sake. Orochimaru for example, even though he did hideous experiments and committed all sorts of other crimes, didn't desire power. He merely wanted to learn all the jutsu in the world: to that end, he determined he would need to become immortal (so he'd have time to learn all the jutsu) and to become immortal, you have to do some very evil things.

Oh yeah...who exactly here first predicted that Obito would be using a Zetsu body for his Tobi persona?

I think we'd have to open up a whole argument on what actual definition of "evil" really is, so I rather skip that for now. =p

Lol it was a bit of a joint theory, from one person saying it was zetsu using obito's eye to another saying he'd use his remains while the moment obito's flashback started we sort of concluded it'd be both seeing as how both things were present at the time. (being fused with zetsu AND having spare bodies hanging about)

I was actually disappointed by how easily ppl came down to predicting this but really would we have gotten a prize or something?

Oh god....

Kishi...how are you going to fix this?

So Obito wraps himself in a Zetsu clone body, and finds Kakashi killing Rin with his Chidori.

There are only two reasons for Kakashi to do that

1) Rin is actually a spy or agent for one of Konoha's enemies, thus he's justified in killing her.

2) He was tricked in some way by one of the jounin or ANBU that Zetsu says are all around the place.

However, that's not all that's bad.

This is Kakashi killing his friend and team-mate Rin. What happens if you kill your friend? Oh yeah, you awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan...except Kakashi doesn't awaken his own until about sixteen years later!

Plus, the only thing that can happen in the next issue is that Obito will freak out and attempt to kill Kakashi in revenge. Obviously, since Kakashi survived to adulthood, he doesn't die. So...why then is Kakashi surprised at the Fourth War that Obito is still alive?

Lastly...who the fuck cares for Obito? To put this in context, think of Star Wars. We have a villain there, Darth Vader, who in the end sacrifices his life to save his son. Interest was so huge that George Lucas decided to reveal the man behind the mask, and tell a story that explained what led to Anakin Skywalker becoming Darth Vader.

Here...Obito is shown in a short prequel chapter and then is never mentioned again. At the time, it was clear to readers that he served merely to answer the question "Where and how did Kakashi get his Sharingan eye?" He accomplished nothing else, ditto with Rin (who exactly did even less). She had no importance to the overall plot of Naruto at all, beyond being the girl who gets kidnapped and has to be saved by the man. Once Kakashi Gaiden was over, Obito and Rin were forgotten about, having had no real influence.

Now suddenly, its revealed that the man in the mask is actually a character we've seen only once before? I'm trying to think of other man in the mask stories: let's see, Red Hood in the Batman comics turns out to be Jason Todd, the second Robin (not a one-shot character). Battlestar Galactica had One manipulating the human survivors by pretending to be a priest.

I'm sure there are other examples, but basically, what I'm saying is: in a story where you have a masked figure running around manipulating events, you don't have him pull off his mask to reveal he was actually a character shown once SEVEN YEARS AGO! (The Kakashi Gaiden manga chapters were released in Japan in 2005)

First off, hold your horses! There are plenty of things you're leaving out of consideration before being in panic mode, even though I admit this latest chapter has left me speechless for how incredibly cruel kishi can be in plot twists. >>

The theory of being a spy is impossibru. She was a small academy girl in obito/kakashi flashback and it showed her growing alongside both of em, so judging by her setting and the age she started out, I highly doubt a girl like her would be a spy. And even if she were, I still don't see why kakashi would resort to kill her and with a freaking chidori! o___o;;

She's been shown as your typical medical ninja, being a fair healer but completely useless in combat hence how she got kidnapped back in gaiden. Again pointing out that she was a very young girl, normal cases don't involve ninjas killing children for being mere spies and this is kakashi we're talking bout which makes it that much more unlikely to happen.

So the only likelihood is that he got trolled by those anbu/jonnin ninjas......and quite badly at that. :/

We already discussed the theory of mangekyou sharingan in the earlier pages of this thread:

what are the chances that both kakashi and obito saw rin die? And then both blaming themselves which led to their mangekyo's awakening? As shown during sasuke vs itachi, you don't need to slay your dearest one to obtain the power. Just experiencing the grief of losing them in front of you is all it would take.

For the mangekyou, u first need sharingan. The next step is the combination of training and pain. Now, most people think that training comes first and later pain is added to achieve it. But I think that the order doesn't matter. Kakashi already felt the pain losing Rin so he just needed the training. Thats how he was able to awaken the mangekyou. On the other hand, Sasuke had enough training and then felt the pain witnessing Itachi's death. And the reason why his first pain(witnessing the massacre of his clan) cannot be counted can probably be because the pain has to be after awakening the sharingan.

^ It does appear to be the likely case here at this point.

Now as far as asking who dafux cares for obito being a one shot character, need I remind you that rin still lived after that so called one shot? There were plenty of ppl including myself who were curious about how she died afterwards as well as the part regarding how kakashi got his mangekyou, anyone who was interested in these 2 things saw that they might have a connection. Granted it is true that kishi was pretty darn late to bring back obito and rin to the story, that was one of the other reasons why ppl couldn't accept him as the semi-masterminded maskman. And quite frankly, I STILL can't accept him while each chapter of this flashback is making it even harder for me.

It especially reminds me of sasuke, coz despite popular belief of him being a whiny guy with a crazed up avenger motive he's starting to show a whole lot more sense in character compared to obito here.

[RikuoAmero]

The theory of being a spy is impossibru. She was a small academy girl in obito/kakashi flashback and it showed her growing alongside both of em, so judging by her setting and the age she started out, I highly doubt a girl like her would be a spy. And even if she were, I still don't see why kakashi would resort to kill her and with a freaking chidori! o___o;;

Have to disagree here. I have to say not impossible, she could have been a sleeper agent planted in the village at a very young age, although I seriously doubt that happened.

For the mangekyou, u first need sharingan. The next step is the combination of training and pain. Now, most people think that training comes first and later pain is added to achieve it. But I think that the order doesn't matter. Kakashi already felt the pain losing Rin so he just needed the training. Thats how he was able to awaken the mangekyou. On the other hand, Sasuke had enough training and then felt the pain witnessing Itachi's death. And the reason why his first pain(witnessing the massacre of his clan) cannot be counted can probably be because the pain has to be after awakening the sharingan.

Another reason why Saskue's witnessing the massacre of his clan can be discounted is because he wasn't responsible for it. He wouldn't have felt guilt (at most, he would have felt survivor's guilt). Sasuke never felt he was responsible for it, that he was at fault. That's why Itachi said to Sasuke to kill his best friend: he was telling Sasuke that he had to feel guilty about committing a horrible act, and one of the easiest ways to do that is to genuinely feel intense friendship for someone, but kill them anyway. Killing a perfect stranger versus killing your BFF would more than likely not have generated the same kind of/right amount of guilt necessary to spark Mangekyou (although this entire paragraph is more than likely rendered moot since that time when resurrected Itachi revealed he didn't kill Shisui Uchiha but rather witnessed his suicide).

[-Zero-]

While it's true that Trollmoto........Trollmoto, HAH! Love it!!

Ok, while it's true that he throws plot twists in ridiculous ways, so far(up to now) they've all made sense and have somehow resolved themselves and have been explained throughly. While I'm dissapointed to see that Kakashi "killed" Rin, I honestly just want to know why? Was he controlled? What was his motive? What will Obito do now?

While the possibilty exists that Obito may attack in revenge, there are MANY factors to consider, such as Obito holding back, Obito running away(possibly), or maybe even Madara intervening(I know, not possible since he's connected to the statue, but then again, he's MADARA). I would love to see what the next chapter holds in store. I honestly don't care if Obito's back, well at least not anymore, I was surprised when we found out that he was Tobi, and so far the connection between Madara and him has been explained somewhat so yeah, I'll just keep reading....at least this is better than having Trollmoto throwing out something like: Tobi is Sasuke from the future, or Naruto was possesed by Madara to go back in time and kill Rin......let's just be grateful that the story at least makes some sense.....................................huh, too many whiles, I am dissapoint....

[Leviathan]

Oh god....

Kishi...how are you going to fix this?

So Obito wraps himself in a Zetsu clone body, and finds Kakashi killing Rin with his Chidori.

There are only two reasons for Kakashi to do that

1) Rin is actually a spy or agent for one of Konoha's enemies, thus he's justified in killing her.

2) He was tricked in some way by one of the jounin or ANBU that Zetsu says are all around the place.

However, that's not all that's bad.

This is Kakashi killing his friend and team-mate Rin. What happens if you kill your friend? Oh yeah, you awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan...except Kakashi doesn't awaken his own until about sixteen years later!

Plus, the only thing that can happen in the next issue is that Obito will freak out and attempt to kill Kakashi in revenge. Obviously, since Kakashi survived to adulthood, he doesn't die. So...why then is Kakashi surprised at the Fourth War that Obito is still alive?

Lastly...who the fuck cares for Obito? To put this in context, think of Star Wars. We have a villain there, Darth Vader, who in the end sacrifices his life to save his son. Interest was so huge that George Lucas decided to reveal the man behind the mask, and tell a story that explained what led to Anakin Skywalker becoming Darth Vader.

Here...Obito is shown in a short prequel chapter and then is never mentioned again. At the time, it was clear to readers that he served merely to answer the question "Where and how did Kakashi get his Sharingan eye?" He accomplished nothing else, ditto with Rin (who exactly did even less). She had no importance to the overall plot of Naruto at all, beyond being the girl who gets kidnapped and has to be saved by the man. Once Kakashi Gaiden was over, Obito and Rin were forgotten about, having had no real influence.

Now suddenly, its revealed that the man in the mask is actually a character we've seen only once before? I'm trying to think of other man in the mask stories: let's see, Red Hood in the Batman comics turns out to be Jason Todd, the second Robin (not a one-shot character). Battlestar Galactica had One manipulating the human survivors by pretending to be a priest.

I'm sure there are other examples, but basically, what I'm saying is: in a story where you have a masked figure running around manipulating events, you don't have him pull off his mask to reveal he was actually a character shown once SEVEN YEARS AGO! (The Kakashi Gaiden manga chapters were released in Japan in 2005)

First off, hold your horses! There are plenty of things you're leaving out of consideration before being in panic mode, even though I admit this latest chapter has left me speechless for how incredibly cruel kishi can be in plot twists. >>

The theory of being a spy is impossibru. She was a small academy girl in obito/kakashi flashback and it showed her growing alongside both of em, so judging by her setting and the age she started out, I highly doubt a girl like her would be a spy. And even if she were, I still don't see why kakashi would resort to kill her and with a freaking chidori! o___o;;

She's been shown as your typical medical ninja, being a fair healer but completely useless in combat hence how she got kidnapped back in gaiden. Again pointing out that she was a very young girl, normal cases don't involve ninjas killing children for being mere spies and this is kakashi we're talking bout which makes it that much more unlikely to happen.

So the only likelihood is that he got trolled by those anbu/jonnin ninjas......and quite badly at that. :/

I don't see a reason why Rin couldn't have been a sleeper agent. Based on what we have seen up until now we can easily consider the possiblity of Rin being a spy. We have seen a young Kabuto act as a spy in multiple villages as a medic ninja. So why not Rin? Saying that Rin was too young to be a spy is not logical. Young ninjas who are experienced in their field are often sent to top class missions like its nothing. Kakashi, Rin and Obito were sent to take care of the battle of Kannabi bridge which was considered as a very important mission to for Konoha, Kabuto was sent as a spy to multiple villages. From this we can say that age doesn't matter to become a spy.

Another reason why Saskue's witnessing the massacre of his clan can be discounted is because he wasn't responsible for it. He wouldn't have felt guilt (at most, he would have felt survivor's guilt). Sasuke never felt he was responsible for it, that he was at fault. That's why Itachi said to Sasuke to kill his best friend: he was telling Sasuke that he had to feel guilty about committing a horrible act, and one of the easiest ways to do that is to genuinely feel intense friendship for someone, but kill them anyway. Killing a perfect stranger versus killing your BFF would more than likely not have generated the same kind of/right amount of guilt necessary to spark Mangekyou (although this entire paragraph is more than likely rendered moot since that time when resurrected Itachi revealed he didn't kill Shisui Uchiha but rather witnessed his suicide).

We can still explain the activation of mangekyo with your guilt theory. You don't actually have to kill someone to feel guilty of killing him. If you feel that you could've done more for the person and just may have saved that person from his death, it could still be classified as guilt. Shisui and Itachi were very close. So Itachi, upon Shisui's death, could've easily blamed himself for being so weak and helpless and not being able to help his friend thus giving birth to guilt. Sasuke could've considered himself guilty of Itachi's death seeing that he spent all the time thinking of revenge and not trying to understand his brother once.

But i still don't think you absolutely need to feel pain or guilt to activate the mangekyo. Madara and Izuna used to train from very young, they grew up to be an ideal soldier, they killed their comrades like it was nothing, so to think that these guys felt pain or guilt is a bit.....I still think that feelings like guilt and pain only act as a catalyst in the path to achieve the mangekyo and nothing more.

[amitkumar101]

lol kakashi killed rin

[saminyt]

But i still don't think you absolutely need to feel pain or guilt to activate the mangekyo. Madara and Izuna used to train from very young, they grew up to be an ideal soldier, they killed their comrades like it was nothing, so to think that these guys felt pain or guilt is a bit.....I still think that feelings like guilt and pain only act as a catalyst in the path to achieve the mangekyo and nothing more.

I think guilt or pain is a must (not just a catalyst) for awakening Mangekyou. Otherwise, there would have been no use for Izuna or Madara to kill their best friends to achieve mangekyou (Unless Tobi was lying about the whole thing). And we only heard about Madara and Izuna so we can't possibly know how they felt. Even the most evil person can feel guilty of doing something really bad.

[BlackDahlia]

1) Rin is actually a spy or agent for one of Konoha's enemies, thus he's justified in killing her.

Possibly

2) He was tricked in some way by one of the jounin or ANBU that Zetsu says are all around the place.

Yeah, no. If you look at the last two pages, Obito is shocked by what he has just seen. Kakashi is not. He very well knew he was about to kill her.

Plus, the only thing that can happen in the next issue is that Obito will freak out and attempt to kill Kakashi in revenge. Obviously, since Kakashi survived to adulthood, he doesn't die. So...why then is Kakashi surprised at the Fourth War that Obito is still alive?

Not necessarily, as Zetsu said, Obito is weak, Zetsu is stronger, Zetsu is wrapped around him and protecting him. Zetsu should easily be able to take him back to Madara or to not allow him to interfere or get involved.

Lastly...who the fuck cares for Obito?

Who cares about Obito? Well, let's think.. uhm.. oh yeah, there's everyone? >.>

Here...Obito is shown in a short prequel chapter and then is never mentioned again. At the time, it was clear to readers that he served merely to answer the question "Where and how did Kakashi get his Sharingan eye?"

Once Kakashi Gaiden was over, Obito and Rin were forgotten about, having had no real influence.

Now suddenly, its revealed that the man in the mask is actually a character we've seen only once before?

basically, what I'm saying is: in a story where you have a masked figure running around manipulating events, you don't have him pull off his mask to reveal he was actually a character shown once SEVEN YEARS AGO! (The Kakashi Gaiden manga chapters were released in Japan in 2005)

It's called foreshadowing man, maybe you've heard of it. And if I may say, it was very well done:

http://www.mangapand...hapter-244.html

http://www.mangapand...hapter-244.html

http://www.mangapand...m/naruto/601/17

What you say doesn't make much sense though. You can sit here and say they only showed Obito and Rin once seven years ago (although, it's closer to six years, but that's beside the point), but don't tell me no one cared about them. For how many years have people been talking about Obito and Rin? Even though the manga did not directly bring them out again, it didn't have to. They were characters that, although only being shown once, were characters in the back of your mind. Characters that made you wonder more about them. That actually makes them perfect candidates for masked figures imo You make it seem like Obito and Rin are nobodies that no one even thought twice about. Lets think back to the very first Naruto episode, the guy who tricked Naruto into stealing the scroll. Although he is the one responsible for Naruto stealing the scroll, learning how to make shadow clones, and becoming a ninja, he's a character that nobody talks about. Obito and Rin are nowhere near as easily forgotten. Hell, I have personally been wanting to know more about Obito and Rin since Kakashi Gaiden, it may not have been 6 or 7 years for me, but still. I liked how Kakashi Gaiden answered something about Kakashi, but it gave me these two other characters that I have been wondering about since. And I can guarantee you that the majority of the Naruto fanbase felt the same way about these two characters. Sorry, but you are absolutely flat out wrong about Obito and Rin being characters that no one, or almost no one, gave a fuck about.

I think you slowly need to start accepting that Tobi is Obito.

[Omega]

back on the awakening mangekyou discusion, how would you explain Madara and his brother then? it says in chapter 386 that they only underwent intense training together, and fought constantly to become the stronger.