Latest Naruto Manga Discussion [Spoiler]

[litte]

My bet is that it was not really kakashi killing rin but another shinobi disguised as him, obito kills the shinobi just to hear Rin last words.

[-Zero-]

Naruto 605 is up: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/605

Some major develelopments here....

Edited October 10, 2012 by SeraphZero

[RikuoAmero]

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/605/4

What the fuck, Kishi? Are you actually deliberately creating even more plotholes? First, the third picture of Kakashi clearly has him somehow obtaining Madara's Mangekyou Sharingan. Look at the link above and then here http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/File:Mangeky%C5%8D_Sharingan_Madara.svg and compare.

What is even more wrong is the fact Kakashi awakens his Mangekyou at all. He only did that during the time skip between Part I and Part II, otherwise he would have used Kamui in Part I.

[Gedo Mazo]

I can't say anything lol. Anyway what will obito do about kakashi next chapter. Or will madara order him to return.

[Bardon]

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/605/4

What the fuck, Kishi? Are you actually deliberately creating even more plotholes? First, the third picture of Kakashi clearly has him somehow obtaining Madara's Mangekyou Sharingan. Look at the link above and then here http://naruto.wikia....ngan_Madara.svg and compare.

What is even more wrong is the fact Kakashi awakens his Mangekyou at all. He only did that during the time skip between Part I and Part II, otherwise he would have used Kamui in Part I.

Ummmm.....no offense but were you half asleep when you viewed this? >>

Its just showing the inbetween process of his sharingan turning into the mangekyou which belongs to HIM, not madara. The 3 tomoe's are merging while the center pupil is opening up, otherwise how else you'd think it'd transform?

Anyway seems like another theory turned out true then (mine in particular), obito and kakashi saw rin die and awakened their mangekyo while at the same time throwing another theory off the window of how a sharingan needs to be developed before obtaining the mangekyou. Not exactly a plothole since I don't recall us knowing anything complete regarding how a sharingan is supposed to evolve.

Oh and the fact that he awakened it now instead of later makes way WAY more sense imo. Because when he reveals this power later on, he shows NO evidence of getting it with the sacrifice of someone close to him. On the contrary he acted like it was an accomplishment or something: http://www.mangareader.net/93-252-2/naruto/chapter-247.html

So again no, the real plothole was kakashi showing it off right in the first shippudden arc when during the final valley arc sasuke's flashback tells us that you'd need to kill your best friend to obtain it. Hence this is actually kishi finally filling it up after so damn long.

[-Zero-]

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/605/4

What the fuck, Kishi? Are you actually deliberately creating even more plotholes? First, the third picture of Kakashi clearly has him somehow obtaining Madara's Mangekyou Sharingan. Look at the link above and then here http://naruto.wikia....ngan_Madara.svg and compare.

What is even more wrong is the fact Kakashi awakens his Mangekyou at all. He only did that during the time skip between Part I and Part II, otherwise he would have used Kamui in Part I.

Ummmm.....no offense but were you half asleep when you viewed this? >>

Its just showing the inbetween process of his sharingan turning into the mangekyou which belongs to HIM, not madara. The 3 tomoe's are merging while the center pupil is opening up, otherwise how else you'd think it'd transform?

Anyway seems like another theory turned out true then (mine in particular), obito and kakashi saw rin die and awakened their mangekyo while at the same time throwing another theory off the window of how a sharingan needs to be developed before obtaining the mangekyou. Not exactly a plothole since I don't recall us knowing anything complete regarding how a sharingan is supposed to evolve.

Oh and the fact that he awakened it now instead of later makes way WAY more sense imo. Because when he reveals this power later on, he shows NO evidence of getting it with the sacrifice of someone close to him. On the contrary he acted like it was an accomplishment or something: http://www.mangareader.net/93-252-2/naruto/chapter-247.html

So again no, the real plothole was kakashi showing it off right in the first shippudden arc when during the final valley arc sasuke's flashback tells us that you'd need to kill your best friend to obtain it. Hence this is actually kishi finally filling it up after so damn long.

I agree with this. Also, notice how Kakashi fainted when his Mangekyou awakened. There is a possibility that because of this, along with the fact that he killed Rin, he may have not noticed that he awoke the Mangekyou. This would then play well later on when he realizes he had this "jutsu" within him, and would develop it into what we see in the beginning of Part II. At the time of his awakening, Kakashi PROBABLY didn't know anything about the Mangekyou. I say probably because we don't know whether he was aware or not.

What my point of view on this is that this chapter reveals how and when he obtained the Mangekyou Sharingan, the stuff from Part II is when he first showed it off after having developed it, and maybe, just maybe, somewhere between Part I and II, or possibly even before or during Part I, he may have realized he had awakened the Mangekyou which led to him training to use it well, hence this is why Kakashi fainted when he obtained it, but at this point can use it up to 3 times per day. That's my take on this.

On another subject, it was pretty interesting to see how Obito went from a two tomoe sharingan directly to a Mangekyou. A little twist considering that the others who obtained it had a 3 tomoe sharingan.

This story is going places, and I like it.

[LWC]

I have to admit I was very skeptical on the reveal of tobi being obito (especially given what happened with kabuto). . . However, obito's backstory shows far superior writing to the kabuto backstory, and has a lot of potential for filling in gaps.

Also, I'm very interested in seeing how Obito transitions to controlling the mizukage (possibly as a result of this fight)

[-Zero-]

Personally, I would like to know how Obito went from this:

to this:

Notice how he's replaced the eye he gave to Kakashi with another Sharingan eye. So is his left eye still the one with the Mangekyou or did he transplant two new eyes in place? I know that the right eye doesn't matter anymore because he has the Rinnegan, but what about his left eye?

[rlapsegen]

Personally, I would like to know how Obito went from this:

to this:

Notice how he's replaced the eye he gave to Kakashi with another Sharingan eye. So is his left eye still the one with the Mangekyou or did he transplant two new eyes in place? I know that the right eye doesn't matter anymore because he has the Rinnegan, but what about his left eye?

Yeah, I also noticed his 'extra' eye, maybe he got it from a random uchiha or probably someone interesting

[saminyt]

Personally, I would like to know how Obito went from this:

to this:

Notice how he's replaced the eye he gave to Kakashi with another Sharingan eye. So is his left eye still the one with the Mangekyou or did he transplant two new eyes in place? I know that the right eye doesn't matter anymore because he has the Rinnegan, but what about his left eye?

It's pretty obvious actually. The other eye is a transplanted one. It cant be turned off nor does it have the Kamui Mangekyou power. And about who he got it from, it could be a random Uchiha. But I think it will reveal to be Madara himself. When he is about to die, Madara will give Tobi his eye and entrust Tobi with his plans.

[-Zero-]

Naruto 606 is up: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/606

A lot of history in this, and the usual motive explanation. I won't spoil anything else less I ruin the "drama".

Scratch that, a lot of things, as in a hell of a lot of things will now make sense....

For the record, page 18 totally made my day!!!! ROTFLMAOLOLOMGNOWAYTHISSOUNDSWRONG....ok, but seriously, that genius thing, BRILLIANT!!!!

Edited October 17, 2012 by SeraphZero

[Gedo Mazo]

So manga panda version call them androids lol. Anyway good chapter,finally the mazo is confirm as the juubi shell.

[RikuoAmero]

Okay, so Obito says "I want a dream world, where Rin is alive."

So...he then agrees to do an incredibly risky and complicated long-term plan. So, put yourself in Obito's shoes. You're doing this, then you hear the Leaf village has been invaded by the Sand Village and Orochimaru had resurrected the first two Hokage. (Or later on when briefly partners up with Kabuto, in case Tobi never learned what happened during the invasion).

Hmm...wouldn't that have changed what Obito was doing? He's got a goal, Bring Back Rin, and he's got a method, Create Dream World. Why would he stick with that method once he hears about actually bringing back the dead. Obito is clearly ruthless and willing to go to any length to reach his goal. So why would he still stick with the Moon Eye plan?

[Bardon]

Okay, so Obito says "I want a dream world, where Rin is alive."

So...he then agrees to do an incredibly risky and complicated long-term plan. So, put yourself in Obito's shoes. You're doing this, then you hear the Leaf village has been invaded by the Sand Village and Orochimaru had resurrected the first two Hokage. (Or later on when briefly partners up with Kabuto, in case Tobi never learned what happened during the invasion).

Hmm...wouldn't that have changed what Obito was doing? He's got a goal, Bring Back Rin, and he's got a method, Create Dream World. Why would he stick with that method once he hears about actually bringing back the dead. Obito is clearly ruthless and willing to go to any length to reach his goal. So why would he still stick with the Moon Eye plan?

I trust you recall how much I resented obito's claim for why he turned bad yes? That it was too simple-minded for such a large scale plan and after all the shenanigans he's pulled, one would fail to believe it. Even though now I just don't care anymore, things are showing a "little" more sense compared to his initial reveal. Rin's death may have been the motivation to start it all but certainly not his ultimate goal, I'm still inclined to believe that there have been more to it.

Regarding why he chose to go with the Moon's eye plan instead of using just nagato, you're forgetting one simple concept:

Time.

It took nagato several years after this flashback to finally reach the point of controlling his rinnegan powers, probably till he took on the alias of pein. And of course if you look at common sense then you'd realize obito would've been much older by that time as well, everybody would've been. Why else you'd think nagato didn't use his outer path for yahiko? Because bringing back a youngster in a world where his friends are all middle-aged people is just too absurd.

Also its not just about bringing back a single person from the dead, you're missing the bigger picture. Rather than bring back someone to die again in a different way, the real sense would be to ensure that person doesn't die at all nor there be any chain of events that'd make it miserable to live with that said person. Obito said he wants to be in a world with rin AND kakashi, where they'd live happily in an ever lasting fairy tale. So what plan does that lead to? The moon's eye plan.

On another note, seems like kishi decided to rush obito's development with madara instead of giving more detail. Leaving us once again on the blank about the sharingan. He did at least confirm that you'd need both senju and uchiha combined to awaken the rinnegan. As I said, at this point I no longer care much about the whats/whys and just prefer keep reading till its explained. A discussion killer I know, but I've grown tired enough trying to analyze each chapter and make long banters every time... (¬_¬)

[RikuoAmero]

Okay, so Obito says "I want a dream world, where Rin is alive."

So...he then agrees to do an incredibly risky and complicated long-term plan. So, put yourself in Obito's shoes. You're doing this, then you hear the Leaf village has been invaded by the Sand Village and Orochimaru had resurrected the first two Hokage. (Or later on when briefly partners up with Kabuto, in case Tobi never learned what happened during the invasion).

Hmm...wouldn't that have changed what Obito was doing? He's got a goal, Bring Back Rin, and he's got a method, Create Dream World. Why would he stick with that method once he hears about actually bringing back the dead. Obito is clearly ruthless and willing to go to any length to reach his goal. So why would he still stick with the Moon Eye plan?

I trust you recall how much I resented obito's claim for why he turned bad yes? That it was too simple-minded for such a large scale plan and after all the shenanigans he's pulled, one would fail to believe it. Even though now I just don't care anymore, things are showing a "little" more sense compared to his initial reveal. Rin's death may have been the motivation to start it all but certainly not his ultimate goal, I'm still inclined to believe that there have been more to it.

Regarding why he chose to go with the Moon's eye plan instead of using just nagato, you're forgetting one simple concept:

Time.

It took nagato several years after this flashback to finally reach the point of controlling his rinnegan powers, probably till he took on the alias of pein. And of course if you look at common sense then you'd realize obito would've been much older by that time as well, everybody would've been. Why else you'd think nagato didn't use his outer path for yahiko? Because bringing back a youngster in a world where his friends are all middle-aged people is just too absurd.

Also its not just about bringing back a single person from the dead, you're missing the bigger picture. Rather than bring back someone to die again in a different way, the real sense would be to ensure that person doesn't die at all nor there be any chain of events that'd make it miserable to live with that said person. Obito said he wants to be in a world with rin AND kakashi, where they'd live happily in an ever lasting fairy tale. So what plan does that lead to? The moon's eye plan.

On another note, seems like kishi decided to rush obito's development with madara instead of giving more detail. Leaving us once again on the blank about the sharingan. He did at least confirm that you'd need both senju and uchiha combined to awaken the rinnegan. As I said, at this point I no longer care much about the whats/whys and just prefer keep reading till its explained. A discussion killer I know, but I've grown tired enough trying to analyze each chapter and make long banters every time... (¬_¬)

Obito doesn't care about Kakashi now. http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/606/10

Madara says there that Kakashi will end up in the dream world, but Obito says he doesn't care, as long as Rin is there.

Okay, I can understand someone's goals changing over time, but it doesn't fit with what's been written already. Just a few chapters ago, just before the flashbacks, Tobi was berating Kakashi about getting Rin killed, so obviously he was pissed off at that and still wanted her. Why, when Kabuto showed Tobi what he could do, wasn't there even a thought bubble from Tobi thinking he could use this jutsu to revive Rin? Kabuto showed him the hand seals, did it right in front of him. At the least, have a thought bubble say something along the lines of "Hmm...if I'd known of this jutsu back then, I would have used it to revive her. But now, its not what I'm after".

[Bardon]

Obito doesn't care about Kakashi now. http://www.mangapand...m/naruto/606/10

Madara says there that Kakashi will end up in the dream world, but Obito says he doesn't care, as long as Rin is there.

Okay, I can understand someone's goals changing over time, but it doesn't fit with what's been written already. Just a few chapters ago, just before the flashbacks, Tobi was berating Kakashi about getting Rin killed, so obviously he was pissed off at that and still wanted her. Why, when Kabuto showed Tobi what he could do, wasn't there even a thought bubble from Tobi thinking he could use this jutsu to revive Rin? Kabuto showed him the hand seals, did it right in front of him. At the least, have a thought bubble say something along the lines of "Hmm...if I'd known of this jutsu back then, I would have used it to revive her. But now, its not what I'm after".

As usual, your observation skills need work. That wasn't madara speaking, it was obito. Its common knowledge among manga readers that when someone speaks in a scene, their speech bubbles aim at their specific persons but when someone is speaking in the background then that bubble doesn't aim at anything.

But I guess this time I shouldn't blame you completely, mangapanda has often been known to have crappy translations despite the fact that they release em quicker than most sites.

/>http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/36035309/13

^ The same scene with more accurate wording and note that the dots imply the dialogues are connected instead of being separate.

/grammarnazi

I don't get what you're trying to say here, I mean what would be the point? The Edo Tensei is even more flawed in this case compared to the outer path jutsu because it brings back the person as an immortal puppet rather than an actual living being. Sure he may have had a thought or two in the back of his mind when he saw kabuto but that doesn't mean anything concrete. If he were some severely sick minded person then he might've just revived Rin as his personal doll and clinged with her till he died in whatever hole he's shacked up in.

But thats a madman's logic, he wants a happy ending with everything. Not just self satisfaction.

[RikuoAmero]

Obito doesn't care about Kakashi now. http://www.mangapand...m/naruto/606/10

Madara says there that Kakashi will end up in the dream world, but Obito says he doesn't care, as long as Rin is there.

Okay, I can understand someone's goals changing over time, but it doesn't fit with what's been written already. Just a few chapters ago, just before the flashbacks, Tobi was berating Kakashi about getting Rin killed, so obviously he was pissed off at that and still wanted her. Why, when Kabuto showed Tobi what he could do, wasn't there even a thought bubble from Tobi thinking he could use this jutsu to revive Rin? Kabuto showed him the hand seals, did it right in front of him. At the least, have a thought bubble say something along the lines of "Hmm...if I'd known of this jutsu back then, I would have used it to revive her. But now, its not what I'm after".

As usual, your observation skills need work. That wasn't madara speaking, it was obito. Its common knowledge among manga readers that when someone speaks in a scene, their speech bubbles aim at their specific persons but when someone is speaking in the background then that bubble doesn't aim at anything.

But I guess this time I shouldn't blame you completely, mangapanda has often been known to have crappy translations despite the fact that they release em quicker than most sites.

http://mangastream.c...uto/36035309/13

^ The same scene with more accurate wording and note that the dots imply the dialogues are connected instead of being separate.

/grammarnazi

I don't get what you're trying to say here, I mean what would be the point? The Edo Tensei is even more flawed in this case compared to the outer path jutsu because it brings back the person as an immortal puppet rather than an actual living being. Sure he may have had a thought or two in the back of his mind when he saw kabuto but that doesn't mean anything concrete. If he were some severely sick minded person then he might've just revived Rin as his personal doll and clinged with her till he died in whatever hole he's shacked up in.

But thats a madman's logic, he wants a happy ending with everything. Not just self satisfaction.

Okay, so it wasn't Madara who was speaking in that speech bubble, my bad.

As for wanting a doll...well, wouldn't that happen anyway in the dream world he's going to make? It won't be the same thing as the actual Rin or Kakashi, and Obito knows this [unless he doesn't know what genjutsu actually is, an illusion]. What I'm saying is that he has a goal, and to accomplish it, he has to do an insanely long and complicated plan that will take him sixteen years. Once a better method is found to accomplish that goal, why would he stick to the harder and longer route?

[Bardon]

As for wanting a doll...well, wouldn't that happen anyway in the dream world he's going to make? It won't be the same thing as the actual Rin or Kakashi, and Obito knows this [unless he doesn't know what genjutsu actually is, an illusion]. What I'm saying is that he has a goal, and to accomplish it, he has to do an insanely long and complicated plan that will take him sixteen years. Once a better method is found to accomplish that goal, why would he stick to the harder and longer route?

To an extent I guess that would be true, but this is the tsukoyomi we're talking bout which is like the king of all genjutsu. Its realistic enough to make you mentally spend years in any made-up scenario the user chooses while in the physical plain you'd be standing still for only a few seconds.

And if this infinite tsukoyomi is anything like the one shown in the road to ninja movie like going as far as making a completely alternate dimension, then that would explain why obito or madara may want to see it through.

Again it doesn't matter if he found a better method, "time" wasn't in his favor. In a sense you'd say he basically had no choice, or there was nothing else he could do at that particular point in time when he discovered those so called better methods. Personally, I don't think its really that easy for someone to completely drop a goal after chasing it for a certain number of years. Oh and thats aside the fact how a goal to change the entire world and a goal to bring a certain someone back from the dead are completely different things.

Having said that, if the next chapter doesn't explain how he became so damn resolved that he'd be willing to bomb babies and wipe out his own village then I'm going to feel a bit empty here. I honestly just can't stomach how vivid minded he's become, all because of rin? Its like you said, he's put WAY too much effort into this if all he ever wanted was to bring back a single person. You see thats why I don't want to believe in this. That everything he did was to simply see rin again, so obviously the real likely reason HAS to be something much bigger. Otherwise his character imo is a flop.

P.S: If you look at here:
/>http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/36035309/10
/>http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/36035309/11

You'd see his aim is "centered" around rin but directed to the whole world hence another point behind my theory.

[shyguysteve]

Whao so Obito is Tobi? I haven't kept up with the manga, is there a flash back of how obito rose out of the rocks?

This is so trippy, parts of it make sense but other parts don't add up. I'm thinking of Nagato and his Rinnegan.

Tobi more or less is the same age as Kakashi. When everyone is off fighting in the war (the sannin away where Jiraiya meets Nagato)

Wouldn't that mean Tobi lied about giving Nagato the Rinnegan? Because Obito then would have been either the same age as Nagato or slightly older. Or did the manga explain that too? Its just weird Tobi is Obito and not a newer character but whatever I like the twist.

[RikuoAmero]

Whao so Obito is Tobi? I haven't kept up with the manga, is there a flash back of how obito rose out of the rocks?

This is so trippy, parts of it make sense but other parts don't add up. I'm thinking of Nagato and his Rinnegan.

Tobi more or less is the same age as Kakashi. When everyone is off fighting in the war (the sannin away where Jiraiya meets Nagato)

Wouldn't that mean Tobi lied about giving Nagato the Rinnegan? Because Obito then would have been either the same age as Nagato or slightly older. Or did the manga explain that too? Its just weird Tobi is Obito and not a newer character but whatever I like the twist.

Here's what happened, to save you having to read those god-awful chapters

1) Kakashi Gaiden happens, Obito is crushed underneath a pile of rocks, says to Rin to take out his left Sharingan eye and give it to Kakashi. They then leave and all they know is they left Obito to die a horrible death either due to starvation or being crushed entirely under the rocks, instead of granting him a mercy death.

2) Somehow, the greatest coincidence of all time happens. Obito somehow survives, finds himself in a tunnel, crawls along for a while then collapses. When he comes to, he finds that the right half of his body has been operated on and replaced (but somehow his right eye survived). He finds out that an extremely old man saved his life, a man hooked up to a strange thing called the Gedo Mazou. A couple of Zetsu clones come in and after a while, the man reveals himself as Madara Uchiha (it was Madara or one of the Zetsu clones who had given Nagato the Rinnegan eyes, by the way, not Obito).

3) Obito stays there a while, a few months at least, while he recuperates. Eventually, one of the Zetsu clones goes out, comes back, says he saw Kakashi and Rin fighting off a bunch of enemy Jounin and ANBU. Obito then wears one of the Zetsu clones like a suit (that one's face is just like the Tobi mask). Obito goes out, only to see Kakashi killing Rin with his Chidori. Apparently he was tricked by one of the enemy Jounin. Kakashi passes out, but just before, both he and Obito awaken their Mangekyou Sharingan.

4) Obito loses it and with Zetsu enhanced strength and speed, kills all the enemy ninja. He brings Rin back with him (leaving Kakashi there). He says to Madara he will create a dream world with him, Rin and Kakashi in it. At the end of the chapter, he's now fully in his Tobi persona but introduces himself to Nagato as Madara Uchiha.