Gay Rights?

[† Emotional Outlet]

Or... apples to dung beetles.

 

Consensual relationships between any number of adults generally don't harm other people. When it does hurt--things like cheating, betrayal, lying, inappropriate work relations--it's rarely a case specific to any one group. All that stuff is already happening, and will continue to happen regardless of whether gays are given the same rights as most other people, so continuing to deny them these rights seems petty and confused at best.

[Dark-hunter]

right why dont we come up with some more  apples to guns,apples to bombs,  apples  to human shields   i mean really  the point might as well get warped and non existent ^^

[† Mute point]

The point was, the comparison wasn't even remotely similar Dark.

 

A simple analogy to work with. Equal rights for other races. In the beginning, they couldn't marry, or vote, or serve in the army, or any of the other government run things. Then they started slowly getting those rights.

 

To compare it to homosexuals... Well, we have always been able to vote here, but we still can't really marry (a marriage that isn't recognized by the feds, or any state other than the one it is performed in isn't really a legal marriage. We only recently became able to serve in the military openly, and the government is working on filling in the holes in the anti-discrimination laws. Things are getting better, but we're not quite there yet.

[Dark-hunter]

the only reason rights came to existence is because human beings starting think they were above one another

 

anyhow seeing as its a free world  and what not let em get married  love is love thats why ppl get married is because they love one another so   its really no bodies right to tell them their love isn't right  ^^

[Dark_Angel13]

I have to agree with Mute on this, I think things are slowly getting better in many countries when it comes down to this, the superpowers like America are still pretty much against it though which isn't surprising considering they have majority of the worlds population so of course they're gonna have a lot of haters and well for lack of a better word, fuckwits.

 

Being gay isnt a choice either as so many of these religions and governments keep spewing out, if you're gay and you find woman not to be attractive even in the slightest what are you meant to do? Go and date a woman anyway just because these people told you that you being gay was just a choice... That'll lead to a really happy relationship and works vice versa as well, no woman would be happy with a man if she's gay, unless that man is VERY feminine, then maybe it'd be borderline.

 

So how about now we discuss this side of gay rights, instead of people comparing nukes to apples and speaking about religion, I'm curious to see what other's think on the "being gay is a choice" matter

[Dark-hunter]

well this isnt the thread for that soo that would make it very off topic although similar  because being gay  by choice or not  has nothing to do with rights  at all   so its not even on a side of gay rights 

 

im pretty sure though that gays would be able to get married in alot of states with in the next few maybe 10 years? since a few of em now alow it  im not sure which ones though

[† Emotional Outlet]

Marriage for love is a pretty new concept, relatively speaking. It's still not the norm all over the world, and even in the US, love and personal choice isn't always the primary factor.

 

The fact that some people, especially people who are in power, view it as a choice probably makes them less liable to accept the fact that we should allow gay marriage. "Why don't you just marry a nice man?" "Do you really have to marry another man, can't you find a woman you like?" I can't claim to have an in to the mind of a person who doesn't like the idea of gay marriage, but if they view it as a choice and not an integral part of a person's identity, it makes them take the issue less seriously. To some people, it's as frivolous as people wanting to marry box turtles or video game characters.

 

I think one of the issues, too, is that with the discussion of gay marriage, there's a lot of other factors to consider. Gender politics is a big one--if a person identifies as genderqueer, if they're trans*, what then? Is it gay marriage if a trans* woman marries a man? The answer should technically be no, she's a woman, but the fact that this person is biologically a man might change some minds, regardless of whether she has had surgery or not. So not only are people being asked to come to terms with homosexuality and bisexuality, they're also being asked to come to terms with all the variation in gender identity, with the fact that gender is not binary.

 

(I can't wait until I can finally stop saying "gay marriage" and just say "marriage".)

[Dark-hunter]

well tech marriage applies to all forms of marriage even it its not recognized    how is  marriage for love a new concept ?

[Dark_Angel13]

It would make it off topic? Really, you're saying that to me? I've seen you go off topic in majority of threads you post in and it may not come under gay rights exactly but it is still an issue to do with homosexuality and technically if we're just discussing rights we should be talking about governments and what they allow etc etc, religion shouldnt even come into it but that has a lot.

 

Religion doesnt control a government, it may control views but that doesnt count either with the way you've put it

[† Emotional Outlet]

The topic of gay rights, as I mentioned, is complicated. There are a lot of factors to consider, a lot of thought processes and beliefs that need to be examined, which includes things like "do you think being gay is a choice". Those beliefs can and do affect how a person views an issue.

 

It's fine you personally don't want to address that aspect of the discussion, but inasmuch that religion is on topic, so are psychological and other societal factors.

 

===

 

Here's a Wiki page on the topic of love marriages.

 

... it was not until the emergence of the women's movement, that the traditional way of choosing one's spouse - based on criteria such as wealth or their respective social positions - were first widely overcome.

 

Like I said, it's relatively new, like the US is considered a new country. When you need to put food on the table and society won't let you work, it becomes a little harder to marry for love.

 

A lot of countries and cultures still very much practise arranged marriages and believe that duty comes before personal fulfillment  The concept of marrying for love instead of duty (whatever that may entail, whether the joining of two powerful families, money, or childbirth) can be looked down upon as an "emotional decision of young boys and girl".

[Dark-hunter]

ah i see  good explanation  

[† Mute point]

On the subject of choice. For me, it sortof was, but not in the sense that I woke up one day and said to myself "I think I'll like tits today."

 

From the beginning, I found both guys and girls attractive. In an attempt to be a little more "normal" (I was already that weird mute girl that sits in the back of the class) I didn't pursue any of my girl crushes during my school years, but after many disappointing and otherwise bad experiences with guys in relationships, combined with the right girl showing up at the right time, I decided it couldn't hurt to let go and just try to enjoy myself. 2 and a half years later, that lovely and opportunistic lady and I are still together, and would be married if our state didn't suck.

 

That's my not-so-sad story on the subject.

[Malyssa Rahl]

There was never a choice for me. Boys are icky.

 

On a large scale, gay rights are about to pick up some major momentum. The US Supreme court will be debating the unconstitutional Proposition 8, and DOMA very soon. Can't wait to see how that turns out.

 

I agree that our state sucks. Apparently we have a gay marriage ban, but it was never on the ballot. Meaning that the state government just slipped it in there. I hope they get fired or something.

[† Mute point]

I try to be nice to the opposition, I try to show them the logical reasons as to why they are wrong, and they explode in my face. >.<

 

I understand that some religions believe that homosexuality is wrong. I'm okay with that. Really, it doesn't bother me. What does bother me is that they expect EVERYONE to agree with their narrow interpretation of their god's word, and anyone who doesn't gets the "YOU'LL BURN IN HELL!" treatment.

 

It makes me want to scream, but I can't, and I could hire someone to scream for me, but it wouldn't make me feel better, so I hit the punching bag, and try again to explain that the laws in the US support equal rights, and they explode again. >.<

 

I almost want to give up on the debate entirely, but I refuse, because that's what they want. And I am done doing what they want.

[Malyssa Rahl]

I find it amazing how few of those opposed to same sex marriage realize that we are not pushing to force their religions to marry us.. We want legal marriage, and if some religions want to marry us, that's cool too.

 

When I explain it to them like that, they get all "...Oh..." faced... and some of them actually support it after that.. It's weird.

 

There are still some who, religious or not, still think it's icky. But honestly? I think straight sex is kinda icky, but I'm not fighting to ban straight marriage because of it!

[Malyssa Rahl]

I know I'm not supposed to double post, but no one else is talking, and I wanted to share this comment I made to some folks on Yahoo.

 

 

 

 

Regardless of what your religion, or anything else that made you decide that same sex marriages are wrong says, you cannot deny the facts.

There are legally married same sex couples in the US. True.

DOMA denies those legally married same sex couples the rights and protections that federal law gives to legally married opposite sex couples. True

The constitution guarantees equal protection under the law to all US citizens. True.

By not providing equal protection under the law to one set of legally married spouses, DOMA is in violation of the constitution. True.

Strike it down along with all of your hatred and your journey to the cuddly side will be complete.

[Pinkie Pie]

Amen to all of that, Mal. Honestly, my dad is pretty conservative so witnessing him say anti-gay things and spewing shit about how gays and lesbians shouldn't be able to adopt or get married because it's ~sacred~ are actually really hurtful? But I'm not surprised because most of my family is like that. I mean, I'm not scared for myself but it's just kind of sad to witness my dad continually say bad things about a group of people that I'm in.

[† Mute point]

Most people who say hurtful things like that either don't think, or don't care about how it hurts people. I would hope that the majority of that group falls into the first category, they can be taught... But I suspect the latter is where the majority of them fall.

[Koby]

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days."

If a man rapes a woman, he must buy her as if she were a thing, and then she will be his wife. It doesn't matter what she thinks because she is a thing.

That is one of the several biblical definitions of marriage. You can't just pick the one you like and use it to oppress people who are different from you. You still want only biblical marriages to be legal?

[† Mute point]

And that's only if they get caught.

 

 

Biblical laws are absolutely ridiculous in the majority of cases.