Abortions?

[† Anras Rune]

So you're putting human life on the same level as farm animals? do you also support cannibalism?

Trend, your first comment brought a few hundred cells to the lofty position of humanity. Not that thats anything to be proud of. But it would also mean that all life would be precious, meaning everything we do to kill off pests and the likes is stooping us to that level.

You cannot compare a microorganism that has no self awareness to human life. Hell, even later fetus' are still technically "part" of the mother's body. Me, I believe in abortion, up to a point of course. If the baby is the last stages of development then not really, unless in extraordinary circumstances.

Also, those pictures are all fine and dandy so I guess I have no soul. Now show the pictures of thousands of children dying due to disease, famine and war in under developed countries where abortion is illegal. Or show the victims of rape, some whose faces and reproductive organs are mutilated to the point of irrecognition. Now put yourself in their shoes. Trend, you aren't a woman, neither am I...we have no right to impose rules on them when we ourselves cannot experience them ourselves.

[BlackDahlia]

So you're putting human life on the same level as farm animals

Well, yes. I don't understand how you can look at tortured farm animals and still want to eat meat, while at the same time you can look at abortion pictures and get sick to your stomach. The way I see it, humans are not better than animals. You can kill an animal, you can kill a human before it's born. After all, were no different, the human race has plenty of people to go around, abortion is not stopping it's growth. Personally, abortion doesn't bother me, and neither does animal torture. I like meat and an abortion slows down our growth, even if only for a few seconds or minutes.

do you also support cannibalism?

I am indifferent, it doesn't bother me. I don't support it, but I am not against it either.

[kashem2]

i support abortions because its not my place to decide. if i girl wants to do to its her choice. the blood isnt on my hands and never will be. but im not gonna make it illegal because i believe a person needs all of the options to choice from not just a few because other people said so.

[aurafalchion]

I only support abortion if: the survival of the mother depends on it, due to rape, due to incest

[Shinigami King]

I support it, because there are such things as extenuating circumstances, plus it's her own damn body = her own damn business.

Also, I don't consider a fetus to be living since it can't sustain it's own life outside the womb.

[Vo0Do0]

Nah, I don't support abortions. It's murder to me. And murder is wrong. Even if it's a mistake child, it deserves to live. Besides, there's a reason for condoms. :

Does that include rape babies too? How about incest rape babies?

[Phoenix]

I'm surprised by all the pro-lifers in this thread. I'm pro-choice, but I don't care. Abortion is such a non-issue that it doesn't even matter, Christians and liberals just make a big deal about it, just to distract from the real issues facing our great nation.

[Guest]

*edited

Edited August 6, 2013 by rand

[Alice]

I am about to be a mother myself. My little one is due in a couple months, but my opinion is the same as it was before I got married and pregnant.

Abortion=Murder

Even if you are pregnant due to being raped, you are still killing a life. A life that is not able to defend for itself. It is not the child's fault that you were raped and should not have to pay the price. Honestly...could you live with the fact that you killed a life. I couldn't. It would destroy me...the guilt of know that I took the life of a living being.

In fact, my opinion is even strong no that I how it feels to have a child inside of me. Relying on me to survive.

No one has the right to take a life of another.

Especially, if you are one of those girls that sleeps around and doesn't think of the consequences of what they do. Girls whom have been pregnant several times and just went and got the child aborted...it makes me sick. It's called protection, there are so many ways to keep yourself from getting pregnant. I think you should be protecting yourself even if you are not with someone if you feel like abortion is okay. Protection would save you and the possibility of getting pregnant even if you were raped. There is no reason for to have an option for abortion. It is murder...simple as that. You are killing another life...even worse, you are killing a life that cannot defend itself. If you were raped...you can't blame the life growing inside you, nor should you decide that that life should be taken away, it is not there fault. Take away the possibility of getting pregnant via raped and protect yourself. There are plenty of birth control methods you can do. If you got pregnant just because you didn't want to use a condom and choose not to use any other form of protection...you shouldn't get an abortion and kill a life because you were stupid. You got no one to blame than yourself.

Sorry if I offended anyone or might have repeated a bit. This is my opinion.

I am not associated with religion, so don't blame my opinion on that. I just believe that taking a human life in any form is absolutely WRONG and those who do it...will feel the weight of taking that life. If I had been raped, I would still have carried the child. Pregnancy isn't easy no matter the situation. As I said above, if you want to eliminate the chances of getting pregnant via rape...get on protection now. There are several protection methods to keep you from getting pregnant.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Sakura Rei

[† Emotional Outlet]

If I had been raped, I would still have carried the child.

I generally take these assertions with a grain of salt. As a teenager, I was far more bold and brash with my words and thoughts--if such a thing can even be imagined--and considered myself, by all means, a strong and independent person. That I would be able to speak out and be able to say "no" and mean it. I certainly had plenty of cojones when it came to debating people viciously over things I didn't even really understand and jumping onto social bandwagons without comprehending the hypocrisy of it all.

Yet when I ended up in a situation I didn't want to be in at all--someone's hand down my pants and trying to finger me--I was frozen in place. All my confidence and attitude right out the door. It happened again under slightly different circumstances with another person, but with fairly similar results. That particular situation ultimately ended in me crying and wanting to leave immediately. I thought I knew what I would do, knew what to do, but when faced with the situation, my reaction was completely different. I could build up situations and hypotheses in my head all day, but they rarely came to life as I anticipated them to--the same generally holds true to this day. And this isn't something that is unique to me, my sex or gender identity, my age group, or these types of situations.

And frankly, if I were to end up in a similar situation today, I would imagine the results would be the same--that same deer in the headlights, "is this seriously happening to me" echoing in my head. But I haven't psychic abilities, so perhaps I would be able to act and do something--I don't know.

Additionally, I appreciate the intent behind "use birth control to avoid being pregnant because of a rape", but to me that smacks of victim blaming and presumption. What about married women who are open to and want to be pregnant with their husband's child? What about women who only have sex with other women? What about women who have problems with birth control? We have all these "tips and tricks" for people so they can "avoid" getting raped, but there's never any "tips and tricks" for people to avoid raping people.

You're free to think as you will as I find little pleasure in swaying people from their beliefs and prefer not to be swayed from mine. I just don't want the option of abortion taken away from anyone--criminalising it will not reduce or remove the need for it and you would be putting more lives into danger as people are forced to take matters into their own hands by any means necessary. Abortion is rarely, if ever, an easy choice--even for women who are pro-choice, as that doesn't necessarily mean they are pro-choice for themselves, if that makes sense. The fact that there are people who are willing to and would rather undergo back alley abortions than carry a child to term is testament to how serious and meaningful this is for people. It's not simple and it's far from black and white. I sincerely doubt any woman who has had to face the possibility of abortion ever approached it lightly.

[Digatu]

Nobody has the right to push their belief structure onto another. If a women feels the need to have an abortion for any reason whatsover then its their choice.

The worst thing in the world in my eyes is an unwanted child. Too many of them exist in the world as it is and children arent stupid either . They can tell wether their wanted or not. It's better to have an abortion than give birth to a child that doesn't get the love it truly deserves and ends up in the social care system for example..

Its not a easy situation to be in for sure. I'm glad I'm a guy and will never have to make a decision like that.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Digatu

[Alice]

I know how it is to be unwanted. I grew up being unwanted. All my "parents" rejected me. I was constantly abused in almost every way possible. My life was nearly taken a few times...by my own mother and the government wouldn't help me. My counselors told me I was a bad child and deserved to be beaten. Yet, I always had high grades and was never in trouble at school. My life was hell and I even prayed to God to have him take my life. Somehow I have managed to pull thru and still find someone who loves me for me and is giving my the gift of life. I know how precious life is. You only get one to live, and I want to live mine without regrets. Getting an abortion would be a deep regret. No...I haven't been in a rape situation. Although I almost was in high school by a couple of football players. Thou, they never tried again...I kind of kneed them has hard as I could in the groin. I am kind of violent when I am put in a bad situation. I was in a very dangerous situation a few years ago when walking home from work. Three big guys came up behind me with bad intentions and gave me a concussion. I turned on them and got violent and they ran away...thou, it could have ended very differently.

I don't want to sway your beliefs as much as I don't want anyone to try and sway me. Everyone has their own opinion.

[Allienne]

I am Pro-Abortion. I feel it is the woman's choice wether she wants an abortion or not. Why should we force a woman who does not want to have a child to have the child? If she was careful and it was an accidental pregnancy (which I have heard there are...a guy I know used a condom while his girlfriend was on the pill and she still got pregnant) then it should be their choice to abort the child. Why should we bring more children into this world only for them to be raised in an orphanage where they may never be adopted? Why should we subject children to this when it isn not their fault that their mother got pregnant and was not allowed an abortion? I feel it is better to abort the child than to bring a child up in the wrong situation, such as not enough money for food and everything else a child needs. Why make the children suffer?

[Guest]

Abortions should be a fundamental human right because we have self ownership over our bodys.  Laws can only go so far to tell me what i can or cant do.  I blame the right wing religious communists for passing such biased laws that clearly do more harm then good. America is going down the toilet bail when you still can.

Edited November 17, 2014 by      

[idl12]

I used to have an open mind about it and say it was all up to the woman and her circumstances...then I saw a video of an actual abortion(not one of those religious propaganda things either) and I must say the process seems quite grizzly and dangerous...I dunno It just seems like the woman might be better off, pushing the baby out after 9 months instead of having it ripped out of her..or crushed inside her then having to push a bunch of crushed and still recognizable baby organs out of her vagina(still have flashbacks of what that looked like, it turned red..then swoosh..organ waterfall) but maybe there are more humane ways to do it,,,It just seems to me that actually giving birth may be less traumatic. though I wouldn't know now would I?

Edited September 26, 2012 by idl12

[† Emotional Outlet]

It sounds like the woman was further along in her pregnancy, idl. I don't agree with late term abortions in the least.

A lot of things look horrible and awful on video and in pictures--it's why vehement opponents of the meat industry often show videos and images of what happens in slaughterhouses, the quality of life for the animals, how they're treated both in life and in death to make meat. It's why people are quick to whip out pictures of Hiroshima victims as an argument against the use of nuclear weapons. It's visceral, it's immediate, and it grosses people out.

But I don't think anyone gets an abortion thinking it's going to be pretty, and I really don't think anyone goes through the procedure light-heartedly. (Maybe they do, I don't know--but I feel like they wouldn't be the majority at any point.) Here's a few stories from women who have had abortions, which seems to jive with the idea that it's not an easy decision. There's a lot of mental debate, a lot of ambivalence. There are women who feel their decision was ultimately the right one, but still need help, still need counselling because it is a difficult decision, even when you're only considering inner turmoil and not what people on the outside are saying about it.

Going through pregnancy, from what I understand, is stressful, even if it's a baby you want to carry. Birth is stressful. Raising a kid is stressful. The whole process is stressful--not by the same magnitude for every person, but it's there. Consider postpartum depression, or even postpartum psychosis. Not to mention people giving you "tips" throughout your pregnancy, talking down to you, judging every move you make. Step into a bar while you're pregnant, even if you're not drinking and there for dinner, and you have people side-eyeing you. Fail to feed your kid the "right" thing and it's like you're slowly poisoning them.

The common theme of judgment, whether you carry the child to term or not, is one that seems to hurt people more than anything else.

Related, here's one person's view why adoption is not an alternative to abortion. The comments are also interesting.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Emotional Outlet

[Malyssa Rahl]

No one can say for certain how they would react in a situation until they've been in it. In an abuse situation, When it was purely physical abuse, even though I knew how to defend myself to a certain extent, like EO, I froze. Emotional abuse? I did nothing. When it was about to turn sexual? I lashed out. If you had asked before that happened how I would react, I probably would have said that I would freeze up as I had in the past. Does that make me a stronger person than EO? Of course not. It was just one situation where I happened to act on the instinct that had been taught to me. Does that make me confident that I would react the same way if it were to happen again? Slightly, but every situation is different.

In the case of abortions. I can't say that I would never have one, or that I would definitely have one in any situation. I can say that it is highly unlikely given the fact that I could not possibly get pregnant by accident through my normal sexual activities (or on purpose for that matter) So that leaves only planned pregnancy through artificial insemination, or the possibility of rape. (Unless divine intervention is considered as a possibility, but I am still convinced that I would at least attempt to sue god if that ever happened. He can make his earthly "representatives" pay child support.)

No one has the right to tell another what they can and can't do with their bodies. Yes, it would be a big decision no matter what. And yes, it is one that no one should make alone. But it is, in the end, up to the woman if she wants to have a baby or not. Though if she's actively trying to get pregnant, and there are no complications during the pregnancy... It would take a pretty twisted mind to justify abortion in that case.

Medically, there are many many reasons for an abortion, primarily when the mother's life would be in danger. By danger here, I am not simply referring to the 1 in 100,000,000 chance of random death during labor, I am talking about those situations where if they carry the baby to term, or even mostly to term, they will die. A few cells, even if they are potentially a sentient being, are not worth your life. Get healthier, get stronger, try again later. Things are always changing.

[Bluenoser]

Now this is a topic I have serious issues with on a moral and personal basis, but not on a political basis.

I've always had a very strong belief in the sanctity of life, human and other, I don't even like killing mosquitoes and black flies, it is that strong. So abortion is something that I have major problems with on a personal level for what I should think are obvious reasons. I'm fortunate enough that I have never had to be a party to such a decision in my life despite my sexual history, as I have never fathered a child that I have ever been made aware of (I have to stick in that quallifier out of a sense of necessity, when you've been as much of a slut as I have been you have to accept the possibility that someone did not know/tell you while you were still in contact, I really doubt it has happened but I must acknowledge its possibility if I am being truly honest here) so I've never had to face that in my own life dealing with my own potential offspring, although I have been involved where people close to me have been in that position and asked for my advice/opinion/help, both male and female. In those cases I have made clear what my own feelings on the issue are, and then I give them not my answers but my questions for them to answer for themselves.

Now, given the preceding I expect the reader is expecting to hear the reason why I have no serious issues with my political basis is because I support the pro-life position, and in that the reader would be 100 percent incorrect. I am and always have been ardently pro-choice since before it was decriminalized here in Canada, indeed I was one of Dr. Henry Morgentaler's earliest cheerleaders in his fight to overturn Canada's anti-abortion laws, and it is thanks to him that we in Canada are unique in the developed world in having no criminal laws regarding abortion since their defeat in 1988 in the R v Morgantaler ruling which leaves abortion in this country as a medical procedure governed only by the same laws which govern all medical procedures and is something between a woman and her doctor and no one else.

Now of course comes the question of why someone with as serious a personal pro-life set of beliefs as I have is so ardently pro-choice where abortion is concerned needs to be answered. For me it comes down to two basic arguments/factors, either of which would in my books be sufficient.

The first one is very simple and straightforward, I believe that abortion is something that a pregnant woman has any right in determining for herself is a viable option because biology/evolution (or God for the religiously inclined) has left women with 100% of the biological costs and penalties (such as the strain of the woman's health, which happens in all pregnancies), not to mention the social costs in our societies as well (it is easy for the male side to disappear from the consequences, not so much for the female, a self evident reality) and since they are the ones that get all of the burden then it is only proper that they are the sole determiners regarding the decision to abort is concerned. I DO NOT support the argument that since it takes two to create a baby that the male should automatically have an equal, indeed any say in the matter in terms of law (I do on a moral/ethical side, but that is not something that carries the weight of law behind it compelling it, simply is my view that ethically speaking the father should be involved in the decision somewhat, but even there I do not take it to the point where I would agree that the opinion of the father is equal let alone superior to the woman's, IOW while I think the father should be involved I still maintain that the ultimate decision must ride solely with the woman in the end) because as already noted the male pays no biological cost in the matter while the woman pays all of it. On this basis alone I have always supported politically the right of women to seek abortions if they feel it necessary.

However, as I grew older (teens onwards, the first view I actually developed when I was in late elementary school, around grade 5 or so, I was intellectually advanced for my years, emotionally though not so much alas, but that is another story) and started learning about rights and freedoms (when I was 15 the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms was enacted, it was a major debate in this nation and a massive change to our fundamental legal structure, and as my childhood ambitions professionally speaking were in medicine, law especially criminal and Constitutional and eventually politics I was very aware and involved in it even as a teen) my second motive for being ardently pro-choice developed.

You see, when you get right down to it basic human rights start at being able to control your own body and it's safety/health/welfare. For males this is a simple enough issue, but for women because of the biological reality of childbearing this is a more complicated issue. One of the main reasons a patriarchal system can develop is because of the biological and social penalties pregnancy and child rearing places on women makes the playing field in terms of economic and political control within a society skew strongly towards males. So therefore the ability to control a woman's body (which is inevitably central to the legal issue of abortion) becomes a central element/issue in whether woman have equal legal rights within a society. Everything I have ever learned about basic human rights has shown me that it is an inevitable reality that whenever you place restrictions on a woman's ability to decide for herself what is medically necessary for herself you have significantly diminished her rights as a human being and stated that her rights are not equal to that of a man's. The harsh and very ugly reality is that too often abortion restrictions are not there to protect the unborn child as much as to punish/control the woman who dared to have sex outside of her proper place ie marriage. It is a human rights issue of basic equality between the genders as well as a medical rights issue, and this is my second core reason for being ardently politically pro-choice.

This is an issue where each person must decide what is the moral/ethical choice for themselves in my books, and is not one I am comfortable using force to make others do as I believe (which is after all what anti-abortion laws are doing). Too often those that claim they want to only protect the sanctity of human life are also the ones that once that life is born take a very harsh and indifferent to even hostile attitude to the quality of that life and it's chances of even survival let alone chance for equal opportunity in society, and because of that reality I am forced to consider that the reason these people are so ardent in their views is not so much because they care about the human life being protected as they do in controlling/punishing those pregnant women for whatever social/religious grounds causes them to believe they deserve to be penalized for their actions. IOW they are "pro-life" to control/punish those women who do not fit their preferred template for the role of woman in society more than they truly care about the value of human life, because if they did they would be as involved in the care of that life AFTER the birth as they are prior. Now, there are those that are consistent in this manner and with those I have respect for because they truly are motivated by sincere respect/reverence for human life, but alas those do not appear to be the majority of political activists claiming to be "pro-life" not at least in North America.

Is this an issue with complex moral/ethical aspects? Yes, of course it is. Is it also an issue of basic equal human rights for women though? As I have just finished pointing out, yes it is, and even leaving that aspect of it out of the equation the fact that it is only a woman that is forced to bear 100% or all the biological costs of childbearing then it is only fair that they retain sole jurisdiction over the decision where abortion is concerned. Either of these reasons is enough for me, both of them together makes this an issue I must stand on without reservation politically a necessity to be able to hold true to my core beliefs regarding life, liberty rights and freedoms that are central to the human condition.

Yes, I know, this was a long winded way of getting to that I am hard core pro-choice, but I think it is important to show that even someone with serious principles regarding the importance and reverence of life who is personally very uncomfortable with abortion can still politically speaking with strong moral/ethical grounds to do so ethically support the need for and the right of a woman to decide for herself by herself whether she needs to have one. I hope I have been able to do so well here for people, because this is why I am solidly in the "pro-choice" camp, because for the sake of equal rights for women, and even more than that because the basic realities of child rearing demand it it must be the woman's choice (preferably as informed as possible a choice of course, that should need go without saying but these days I suppose one can't be too careful) freely made. Otherwise in the end it is not choice but arguably slavery of women in the end.

P.S. EO, loved your links, especially the one dealing with the fallacy of adoptions being the answer to picking up the slack if all abortions were outlawed/prevented, it is one of the things I find infuriating about many of the so called "pro-lifers", they fail to understand the consequences of their desires let alone seriously consider what kind of resources would be required to handle the additional influx of human life within their societies in anything remotely resembling a humane or even a good Christian manner. As I said earlier and has been noted by many over the years too often these people are pro-life pre-birth but utterly indifferent to hostile to those same lives post birth, especially when they come from lower income/social classes then themselves in their eyes. A very sad and ugly reality.

[† Emotional Outlet]

As always, I love reading your posts, Bluenoser.

I definitely agree that if people really cared about life and not just unborn foetuses, you would see more interest and concern for the lives of others post-birth. More interest in fixing the welfare system, to get support to people who need it instead of turning up their noses at anyone who dares try to acquire any help and accuse them all of being alcoholics or drug addicts, to make the foster care system actually work and get those children into good homes. It's a common bit on comedy shows, that the people who are ardently pro-life/anti-choice can be the most ardent supporters of the death penalty and believers that once you're born, you're on your own, bub!

That the decision should fall primarily in the hands of the woman--including whether to include the man in the decision--is a belief that I've held almost secretly because people seem to find such beliefs unpalatable. But for similar reasons I don't feel I have a significant place in an argument about circumcision (because I am unfamiliar with having a penis, what it's like to have one, and what it means to a man to be circumcised or not--not to mention the plethora of contradictory studies and stories), I get a little edgy when legislation on abortion seems like it's falling into the hands of primarily male politicians.

It just seems like because it's so easy to gross people out with late term abortions, to use such vivid and colourful language like "crushing foetuses", it's therefore easy to make people run in the complete other direction, to make them want to make things like even Plan B verboten and think that abstinence only campaigns can be effective.

Anyway, thanks for the food for thought and your point of view. I hope I can be as cool as you when I grow up, haha.

[† Mute point]

I think it's none of anyone else's business if others have abortions. The final decision should always be in the hands of the pregnant woman. I do think that the father should be able to give his input on the matter, but unless he's willing to take 100% of the responsibility for the child after it is born, then his opinion only matters as much as the woman allows it to. And even than, it should still be up to her in the end, because it is ultimately her body, and she is the one who will have to go through all of the stress of giving birth.

Early term abortions are the easiest for everyone involved. It is during the stage when the body hasn't entirely adapted to the embryo that presents the fewest health risks, and the quickest recovery time. Psychologically, I imagine it would be much easier to deal with the choice at this stage as well. Although that depends on the type of person they are.

The foster care system sucks. That's the reality of it. It is not a good thing at all to leave a child in it. there are too many unwanted children just in the US for anyone to attempt to force more to be born by outlawing these procedures.

Also, by outlawing abortions, you would simply end up with normally law abiding citizens forced to go to back alley "doctors" where they put their lives at risk to rid themselves of a child they don't want, or can't handle. It is far better to have them in a hospital where they can be monitored, and there are people looking out for their mental well being as well as their physical health.

It is extremely unlikely that I would ever be in a situation where I had an unwanted pregnancy. There simply cannot be an "oops" or a birth control malfunction resulting in pregnancy during my normal sex life. Which leaves force as the only possible reason for an unwanted pregnancy. And well... I feel fairly confident in saying that if anyone tried, they'd wish they'd picked a different potential victim before it was over. Which pretty much just leaves a planned pregnancy as the only realistic possibility for me, and baring serious health problems, I can't even begin to imagine a reason to abort a child that you've planned for.