Goku vs Superman

[Avith]

@Myrodis19

Dark Side can use instant transmission? He can wipe out galaxies in less than a few seconds with his own natural power? He can SURVIVE attacks that wipe out planets? I'll wager the the answer to these questions are "no".

Goku in terms of "strength" and "ability power" with Kaioken has already surpassed Superman. Let's also not forget Kaioken is just petty in comparison to Goku's Super Sayian power. Soon after he learns instant transmission. He is then faster. Goku could survive attacks that destroy planets during the fight with Vegeta AND deflect them. THAT was all Goku during his weaker days of DBZ. By the time he masters SSJ 1 he is already superior to Superman in every dimension. SSJ 1 is NOTHING compared to what happened with Goku's abilities,skill,edurance,ect. later; like with Cell Saga, then Buu Saga, and the GT sagas, where he fights Omega Shenron who is suposed to be the evil alter ego of the former Shenron dragon(who is basically an immortal god) . . . and STILL wins. XD

As to your previous comments about "countering" instant transmission, . . . I highly doubt it. What most people (even some dbz fans) don't know is instant transmission doesn't have a "speed". It's not like Superman's fast movements or a flash step from bleach. Instant transmission is being in one place and then being somewhere else. It basically teleporting. Superman isn't familiar with this and surely wouldn't expect it.

Also how is Goku having a variety of abilities a "downfall"? Please explain.

I also noticed you wanted to factor in universe/character/situation realism. In that case the 2 would never fight anyways. They both fight for justice and of a "pure good" alignment. True?

[Krogothwolf]

Actually, Darkseid can survive destruction of planets and can destroy Worlds with his own strength.......depending on the writer. And Superman can react quickly to instant transmission, though there is no full counter to instant transmission.

Here is something everyone here needs to realize.

Superman's powers are dependent on the writer. He is weakened and strength based on the storyline, and even that doesn't always hold true. Even the recent New Krypton Arc had superman's powers fluctuating with such a screwed up way that it boggled the mind. Because Superman is in a world populated by hero's far weaker then himself, like Batman, he's as strong or as week as the story requires.

He was able to stand toe to toe with a being that could destroy an entire universe, but can't stand up to a human at times. That's Superman's biggest weakness, it all depends on who's writing him with how powerful he is. It's borderline mental with how quickly his powers can alter and change. He can move entire planets with one hand, then he has trouble moving a mountain. He has the ability to fly through a red sun, something that will depower him, and be able to stay powered up long enough before he's fully drained, then next time he's depowered instantly by a red sun. Superman can fly though a planet in a fraction of a millisecond, then he needs to use his heat vision to fly through something else. He can fly around the world in a fraction of a millisecond, then it takes him a few minutes to fly from metropolis to gotham. He can survive in space infinity, then he needs to take a big breath to survive in space.

If you haven't been reading the comics forever, or base it off the already weakened movie/cartoon/tv series versions of supermans then its impossible to judge his full power, since depending on what you read his powers are different.

Most writers currently put him at weaker then Goku in the last year or two of storylines I have read, as I just got fully caught up on DC's storylines so, currently Goku would win based on how Superman is currently written. It's so freaking annoying I'll tell you, it's why American Comics are inferior to manga's.

Where in DBZ with Goku, since it had one author, all he had to do was go "well, lets just make em all fugging stronger." Instead of changing powers and abilities, altering everything just so it works with the characters and story. Hence why humans eventually became a afterthought and it was all about saiyans and androids powered by saiyan blood and then mystical creatures of awe.

ALSO KOBY, I actually am not a bigger superman fan then a Goku fan. I freakin Love Goku, best character design ever, the naive, pure at heart hero, who sleeps on bulma then gets surprised that she has no balls. Ahh Goku, you were hilarious.

The only reason I came back here is because of some bonehead admin *cough*koby*cough* had to mention my name then talk about this in the damn CB.

Also, I want to point out, that Mr. Satan is goddamn awesome as a character and should have gotten his own series. And could beat Batman!

[messi009]

goku's the camp!!.....no more arguments

[mathswiz]

I couldn't say

[cow whisperer]

In the same manner Superman was as powerful as the story needed him to be, Goku also gained powers to suit the story. However because of a stronger continuity line, Goku continued to gain power and would still be gaining power today if production continued. Whatever insane obstacle you put in his path, he finds a way to overcome it. In a sense, Goku has unlimited power. If his power limit prevented him from accomplishing a task, well that's okay. It turns out that power limit was nothing really, just a check mark on his way to godliness.

Superman on the other hand suffers in this contest because of the lack of continuity. It's not really a fair comparison for ol Supes. There's so many unconnected versions of him and different perspectives. At his most powerful, I can't think of anyone that remotely holds a candle to Superman in the Marvel Universe. He is godlike.

So the question I suppose would be with Superman at his most powerful, would he kill Goku. I don't think he would. If this fight played out in the Dragonball universe, Goku would end up being more powerful than Superman exponentially. His power really is unlimited in DB. He simply rises to the occasion, that's his core trait and all he really needs. It's irrelevant to discuss his various powers, because he'll get the power needed to beat Supes. Whether it's nine tails and chakra blades, or super saiyan 9000, he'll obtain the necessary power.

In the DC Universe, all things being equal with Goku's I train I win trait, I figure he could lose by being outright killed. However that's unlikely when dealing with the ultimate dogooder Superman. He could also lose by being confined or trapped unable to fight for all time. Tough call though, he can teleport and can do all manner of things with energy.

It's just not a fair comparison. They essentially are both supermen of their Universe. Although I am biased towards Goku, Superman does rule the DC and Marvel Universe as most powerful hero. If one had to lose, because Superman hasn't in any consistency shown the ability to make tremendous strides in power gain, he loses here. When he's matched with similar power, he doesn't get angry and green or busts out a bankai. Instead we usually see him use intelligence, a little guile, or he get's bailed out.

Someone a ways back referenced the fight with Goku and Majin Vegeta. This fight was actually never even. Goku wanted the fight to be as close as it was. At any time, Goku could have went super saiyen 3 and quickly dispatched Vegeta as it was later revealed in the Boo series. Going ss3 however would have quickly used up the time he had on earth, but more so Goku likely enjoyed the thrill of fighting a stronger Vegeta.

[Myrodis19]

In the same manner Superman was as powerful as the story needed him to be, Goku also gained powers to suit the story. However because of a stronger continuity line, Goku continued to gain power and would still be gaining power today if production continued. Whatever insane obstacle you put in his path, he finds a way to overcome it. In a sense, Goku has unlimited power. If his power limit prevented him from accomplishing a task, well that's okay. It turns out that power limit was nothing really, just a check mark on his way to godliness.

Superman on the other hand suffers in this contest because of the lack of continuity. It's not really a fair comparison for ol Supes. There's so many unconnected versions of him and different perspectives. At his most powerful, I can't think of anyone that remotely holds a candle to Superman in the Marvel Universe. He is godlike.

So the question I suppose would be with Superman at his most powerful, would he kill Goku. I don't think he would. If this fight played out in the Dragonball universe, Goku would end up being more powerful than Superman exponentially. His power really is unlimited in DB. He simply rises to the occasion, that's his core trait and all he really needs. It's irrelevant to discuss his various powers, because he'll get the power needed to beat Supes. Whether it's nine tails and chakra blades, or super saiyan 9000, he'll obtain the necessary power.

In the DC Universe, all things being equal with Goku's I train I win trait, I figure he could lose by being outright killed. However that's unlikely when dealing with the ultimate dogooder Superman. He could also lose by being confined or trapped unable to fight for all time. Tough call though, he can teleport and can do all manner of things with energy.

It's just not a fair comparison. They essentially are both supermen of their Universe. Although I am biased towards Goku, Superman does rule the DC and Marvel Universe as most powerful hero. If one had to lose, because Superman hasn't in any consistency shown the ability to make tremendous strides in power gain, he loses here. When he's matched with similar power, he doesn't get angry and green or busts out a bankai. Instead we usually see him use intelligent, a little guile, or he get's bailed out.

Someone a ways back referenced the fight with Goku and Majin Vegeta. This fight was actually never even. Goku wanted the fight to be as close as it was. At any time, Goku could have went super saiyen 3 and quickly dispatched Vegeta as it was later revealed in the Boo series. Going ss3 however would have quickly used up the time he had on earth, but more so Goku likely enjoyed the thrill of fighting a stronger Vegeta.

[Avith]

cow whisperer made a very good observation. Goky always seems to do the neccessary power-up to win. For those who really want to see this theory in action watch these fights:

Omega Shernron vs. Goku - starts to lose badly when both Goku and Vegeta go SS4 and trying to gang up on the baddie, but don't really even stand a chance still. Then he wins anyways with the spirt bomb.

Broly vs. Goku - basically everyone gets trashed with Goku barely hanging on to his life and no one can ever scratch Broly. Then his friends send him the very little energy they had left (almost nothing) and suddenly he punches Broly open (almost in half xD) and wins.

Personally I agree. In fact, the only way I can think of that would kill Goku would be to poison his food. In terms of a fight, especially 1 on 1, it doesn't seem possible to beat Goku.

[dragon4sight]

Goku would Win, dosnt matter the opponent he always wins and if he fights someone stronger then himself he only gets stronger xD

[Nero D. Ace]

Personally I agree. In fact, the only way I can think of that would kill Goku would be to poison his food. In terms of a fight, especially 1 on 1, it doesn't seem possible to beat Goku.

[Arvo]

Ahh yes, food poisoning, Goku's ultimate weakness.

[Krogothwolf]

Goku doesn't always win though. I don't know why everyone keeps saying he always wins.

Sure he might win a rematch, but he doesn't always win.

Fights Goku has lost.

vs Jackie Chun

vs Tao

vs Tien

vs Radiatz

vs Vegeta

vs Cell

[Koby]

Goku doesn't always win though. I don't know why everyone keeps saying he always wins.

Sure he might win a rematch, but he doesn't always win.

Fights Goku has lost.

vs Jackie Chun

vs Tao

vs Tien

vs Radiatz

vs Vegeta

vs Cell

vs. Jackie - I wouldn't call that a loss honestly. This came down to pure chance in the end.

vs. Tao - I don't remember this fight.

vs. Tien - Lol again by tourney rules maybe, but only because he hit a car, otherwise he had actually won this.

vs. Raditz - Um.. sure he sacrificed himself but his plan worked and they killed Raditz. I wouldn't consider this a loss.

vs. Vegeta - Now this is the first actual loss I remember, but he sure gave him a run for his money.

vs. Cell - Sure Cell had him outpowered but he didn't really lose the fight. He quit to give Gohan a chance and when Gohan didn't finish the fight quick enough.. Goku sacrificed himself to save everyone. Cell would have been gone too had he not had the ability to regenerate from a single cell.

So besides Tao which I don't remember, and Vegeta, the rest I honestly don't consider a loss. Superman on the other hand loses nearly every fight I've seen him get into, only to come back at the end of the episode or movie or whatever and win. Well it's pretty much the same with Goku. Sure Goku doesn't always win, but he always comes back more powerful.

But then these losses and wins don't actually contribute anything towards the discussion of Goku vs. Superman. The only way they could is if one of their enemies had fought the other so you could compare them. The thing about this type of debate is you have nothing to really go on since their universes never collided. You can only judge it based on their feats they have accomplished or things they mentioned they could do, or things their opponents were capable of in which they beat.

As I have mentioned time and time again. I have never read the comics so all I have to go on is the movies, tv shows, and cartoons of Superman. Of those versions of him, based on the feats he was able to accomplish, I really do consider Raditz stronger than Superman, which would mean by the end of DBZ even Krillin could conquer Superman in the forms I know. Now I am aware there is stronger versions of Superman, only I haven't seen them to be able to judge his strength.

[idl12]

Tao was an undeniable loss, from what little I remember, Goku got his ass kicked and some other character had his father killed.

[Koby]

Tao was an undeniable loss, from what little I remember, Goku got his ass kicked and some other character had his father killed.

Ah yes, now I remember that fight. It was right after that Goku climbed Korin's tower and then beat Tao soon after.

[Nero D. Ace]

The thing that's made me like Goku over Superman is that while Goku has grown stronger over time and undergone "character development" by beating enemies stronger than him, Sup has pretty much remained the same. Honestly, If you compare a comic from 1995 with one from 2007, you'd say that the guy was basically the same as the last issue.

So while Sup's strength has remained constant, Goku's has constantly grown every time he defeated an enemy. That's why it's likely that it'll grow when facing Sup as well. If you think about it, Sup doesn't like fighting much so he'll probably stop to ask Goku why they're fighting.

Unless we get a clear reason what the fight's ABOUT, there's no way to reach a verdict.

Maybe if Goku killed Lois and Sup killed Chi-Chi or something? Then we'd be compare who has the stronger will.

But the chances of that happening are completely out of character.

[Krogothwolf]

Raditz destroyed Goku easily the first time they met. Even if it wasn't much of a fight, Goku had no chance against him in the first meeting.

I was just pointing out the silliness of the Goku never loses argument. Since he does lose.

Iki, Sup's strength doesn't remain constant anymore, it alters and changes due to writers and story arcs. The theory behind Supermans ability is the longer he lives under a yellow strong, the stronger he becomes. Since he doesn't age, he'll eventually because nearly omnipotent(according to DC One Million.) If you compared a Superman from 1995 to 2007, you'd have a vastly different superman, because he's as strong and as powerful as the story is needed. The 1995 one is after supermans rebirth and he was weakened somewhat compared the 2007 levels, now the 2009-2010 levels are weaker then the 2007 levels.

As I said before the current written superman(last year or 2 as I finally caught up on the series) has been nerfed huge lately that Goku would walk all over him as it is right now. The "New Krypton Arc" required a weakened Superman(due to an influx of Kryptonians) That Superman was weakened fairly significantly to make it an interesting Earth vs Krypton fight.

Now that they are "rebooting" everything, I'm not sure the New Superman would be able to handle Goku. Though I'm betting they're going to weaken him to 1st Post-Crisis superman levels, who would be weaker then Goku.

[Avith]

Yes, the DB saga Goku lost here and there. C'mon on though, that's not the real Goku most of us are thinking of. DB Goku shows almost none of his sayian power. DB Goku was more like a talented human that sometimes turned into the Great Ape.

We are obviously not debating DB Goku vs. Superman, as THAT result is quite obvious.

After his 100x gravity training was finished, then that's when he started to become quite invincible.

Goku lost to Cell? I remember him willingly sacrificing his life to save Earth, not really "losing" his fight. I personally think he could have won with the whole ascending power thing if he kept fighting, and didn't let Gohan get his turn. Maybe that's just me.

He could've easily beat Vegeta, but didn't want to use SS3. So he lost only due to difficult circumstances. I doubt something that random like that would happen when fighting Superman.

[hyperfoxfire]

goku will kick supewrman up and down the street

[zirufe]

That depends on when Goku fight Superman. If Goku was a kid, maybe he lost. But after he can be in Super-Saiyan form. Of course, Superman will be blown way with just single kameha blast

[cow whisperer]

When discussing who would win in my previous post, i guess it wasn't clear but by win, I'm referring to, the overall champion.

I'm sure I mentioned that Goku has lost single fights in the past. It's an indisputable fact. However Goku becomes noticeably stronger when pushed to the brink.

In the Radditz example, Radditz might as well be superman for all intents and purposes. How many times would Goku have to fight him to be stronger than him? Radditz might kill Goku, but superman would avoid it, so let's assume Radditz will fight here without killing.

Actually that's not the greatest of examples since Radditz is a saiyan as well and would gain power from the fights. BUT I think you get the picture. Given enough battles, time, training, Goku can beat just about anyone. Not only that, he can become so much stronger that they no longer pose any threat.

It's his character design. Everything about him is about getting stronger and stronger. Meanwhile a character such as Superman is confined to whatever his powers are authored as.

So who 'wins'?

The saiyan who can become stronger than his opponent?

Kal-El who is faster than a speeding bullet who's mere sneeze can destroy solar systems?

I gotta go with Goku here. He may lose some fights, but if his opponents can't keep up with Goku's power increases after these fights, Goku will overtake the opponent who hasn't any hope of catching up.

Just give in and show Goku some love. When you first saw Goku transform to super saiyan 3, did a tear not roll down your cheek?