Religion

[s0teric]

II'm just saying that there are actual medical ways to pull off exactly the things that happened.

I find this very difficult to believe based on the section I recomended that you read

If questioning the facts of a story is enough to damn me to hell, then god is not nearly as loving and caring as people want to portray him to be. Based on the bible, we were put on this earth to learn, and to gain a physical body.. well, you don't learn anything if you don't question.

Questioning facts doesn't damn you to hell the debate we're having is perfectly healthy, and is, in fact, good. What does earn one a ticket to hell is doing that which God would not have us do (AKA sin). In fact, anything outside God's character (outside the realm of perfection) is sin. One thing I want to clarify is the people who say God loves everyone. First, you have to recognize that God knows everything. Even before He created time and everything he knew who would be saved and who wouldn't be. In this sense, we are predestined on way or the other. Therefore God has already chosen who will go where after death. But what kind of God would choose for people to occupy hell? One you have to recognize what our sins mean. The purpose for which we were created was to glorify God and enjoy him forever (I'll continue this and address your point later). We, however, fail miserably at this even those who believe and worship him(imperfectly). So, therefore, a perfect God would have every right to wipe a defective creation off the map. Based on the Bible we see many attributes of God. One being that he is perfectly just and one being that he is perfectly merciful. Don't these two contradict? In order to exercise both, we must conclude there must be a hell, but there must also be a heaven. So in this point I agree with you while he is perfectly and infinitely loving you have to realize he is also perfectly and infinitely just. And your second point, we were placed on this earth for the glory of God ( I could talk about this point all day if you're REALLY interested you could read Johnathan Edwards's "The End for Which God Created the World") and learning and questioning is a means by which we can glorify him (using the minds he gave us to think as he does, which is to say, perfectly, which we can't achieve but we strive for because it is within God's character to think perfectly). So it is of the UTMOST importance to learn, therfore of the UTMOST importance to question this and I'm sorry if I came off as opposed to the idea.

I would also like to think that whatever higher power is out there would have a sense of humor. I mean, if he doesn't strike people down for writing really long stories explaining that Adam and Eve were stoned and had the munchies when they ate the forbidden apples... I think I'm relatively safe with a harmless zombie comment.

I agree with you that he has a sense of humor, I was simply stating that in your situation I wouldn't joke because what you believe effects whether you go to Heaven or Hell, and based on Pascal's wager which I paraphrased previously, it is to one's own benefit to believe in Heaven and Hell. No, God won't strike you down for making a joke, but you're situation is serious and the implications are bad, that's why I said I wouldn't joke about it. It's like mocking the jury during a trial and sin in the face of a perfect God is worse. When they decide your fate, it's not a good idea to mock them. Same idea

[Daltruce312]

I belive in GOD, i mean what is the point of religion? im trying to please GOD not people. Heaven is not like an appartment catholics wont be told to go to the first floor and mormons to the second etc etc... we wont be judged on religion but on faith and loyalty to HIM.

[Sgt.Walton.001]

It has its good and bad parts, like most tools or subjects in life

[ghostlysunny11]

It's obvious isn't it by looking at the trees and everything else in nature around you,you realise that there is a someone controlling this...but the question is who?I belong to a religion which might be the most misunderstood religion in the world,and all that because of I guy who doesn't even exist,Laden,WTF.I'm a muslim,and most people think of my religion to be violent whereares it is quite peaceful.I want to tell more people about my religion and clear misunderstandings so if there are any question,then fire ahead.Let me just share the basics(note:this is based upon my beliefs and is not intended to hurt someone):Islam started from the beginning of the world,and Adam was made,devil tricked him into eating the forbidden apple,he apologised to god,god accepted but sent him to earth as he was destined,after that many phrophets came and went all of them facing utmost rejection and then came Hadhrat Isa (P.B.U.H) or you all know him as Jesus Christ,Islam says that "God has no partners,wife,and children,we are only his worshippers whom he loves more than the love of 1000 mothers combined together".Now Jesus was also a messenger of god but many mistaked him to be the son of god.His enemies pursued him and put him on a cross.AHH but wait JESUS DID NOT DIE he was only lifted bodily and a man who looked similar to him was crucified then came the final messenger Muhammad (P.B.U.H).And to this day the muslims and christians are waiting for the arrival of Jesus to come back to this earth.But I cannot tell you everything that is why I put up a link here http://www.islaam.ca/

[s0teric]

Now Jesus was also a messenger of god but many mistaked him to be the son of god.His enemies pursued him and put him on a cross.AHH but wait JESUS DID NOT DIE he was only lifted bodily/

Luke 22:30 "They all asked, "are you then the Son of God?"

He repliead, "You are right in saying I am"

this is one of several reference I could quote and if you say the Bible has become corrupted or have never read it so you can't say for your self (most Muslims recite one of these two responses) 1) read my giant post on the previous page it covers why the Bible hasn't been corrupted 2) get a Bible, and I don't think it's logically reasonable to say they executed the wrong man (there were lots of witnesses there how could he have ascended without anyone noticing and why would they not recognize that the man they were killing wasn't Jesus??) if you only have the testimony of one man writing one holy book it is not exactly reasonable, as well, to rely on his testimony seeing as he could have conjured up the whole thing as an individual if muhammad gives an account of this (I don't know if he did I have not studied the quran THAT in depth) but basically if the Bible is accurate, then the quran is not, as it relies on the scriptures being corrupted so read my previous post as I gave some evidence as to why it has not been corrupted

[Max465]

Believe what you want, but don't push your religious beliefs on me...that's pretty much what I believe in.

I'm pretty much Agnostic to sum things up.

[Manifesto]

Believe what you want, but don't push your religious beliefs on me...that's pretty much what I believe in.

I'm pretty much Agnostic to sum things up.

This is exactly how I feel.

[seirachan]

Well I don't have a religion. But I'm not Atheist either. All my life I was put a book called the bible in front of my face. But I never once believed it or even much cared. I had thought it was just something I had to do in life just like school until I figured out later in my life that It was called a religion and I had a choice. So i broke all ties with it and just didn't care.

I don't know if an afterlife is out there but I'm not so scared of death to keep praying to something i don't know if it existed/exists. We are all going to die. I will find out the truth then. It doesn't matter to me while I'm alive. There may be a heaven and there may be eternal darkness. What ever it is I'll find /out someday. I don't believe I should have to "win" my way into a heaven. I try to be a good person for everyone else. Not for "God". I wont lie my whole life and be someone I'm not to try and get into heaven. I am who I am and nothings going to change that.

As far as I know an Atheist believes in nothing. I don't believe in nothing I just don't care. What ever happens at the end of this road will happen. There is nothing I can do to change that. If anything I simply don't believe I have to win my way into heaven if there is one. A true heaven to me is to relive life and do it right.

Just wish my body could be persevered and my brain unharmed in chase it would help me dream forever.

[s0teric]

We are all going to die. I will find out the truth then. It doesn't matter to me while I'm alive. There may be a heaven and there may be eternal darkness. What ever it is I'll find /out someday. I don't believe I should have to "win" my way into a heaven. I try to be a good person for everyone else. Not for "God". I wont lie my whole life and be someone I'm not to try and get into heaven. I am who I am and nothings going to change that.

As far as I know an Atheist believes in nothing. I don't believe in nothing I just don't care. What ever happens at the end of this road will happen. There is nothing I can do to change that. If anything I simply don't believe I have to win my way into heaven if there is one. A true heaven to me is to relive life and do it right.

Just wish my body could be persevered and my brain unharmed in chase it would help me dream forever.

don't you think it would be a little late to find out when you die? if you're met with unimaginable pain and suffering don't you think you'll regret not caring? And if you have a Bible that says you have to "be a good person" then you don't have a Bible at all. That is not what it's about. It's not something you work at and is not like school. And Heaven will be much better than reliving this life, trust me.

Believe what you want, but don't push your religious beliefs on me...that's pretty much what I believe in.

I'm pretty much Agnostic to sum things up.

I know what you're saying, but I'll quote myself here,

"The Christian ethic, in this regard, is best illustrated by the athiest comedian Penn Gillete. You can watch his video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa9JE...eature=related

As a summary, if you don't want to watch it, what Penn basically concludes is that, "How much do you have to hate someone to believe that everlasting life is possible and not tell them. If I believed that a truck was coming at you there would be a certain point when I would tackle you and this is more important than that." Even coming from your perspective of doing whatever you feel like (which I agree applies to Christians as well, we do whatever we like we just call what we do that is outside of God's character sin, either way you do whatever you like however if you are a Christian God's work will be evident in your actions) if all that matters is your own personal pleasure than if there is an eternity, then it is in your personal interest to care as well to secure the outcome."

[seirachan]

don't you think it would be a little late to find out when you die? if you're met with unimaginable pain and suffering don't you think you'll regret not caring? And if you have a Bible that says you have to "be a good person" then you don't have a Bible at all. That is not what it's about. It's not something you work at and is not like school. And Heaven will be much better than reliving this life, trust me.

Not really. I have never believed in a hell my theory of it is, it is used to fear you into being good. I'll be good on my own terms. There are so many religions the fact that I've never cared since birth is why it's not for me.

I meant the ten commandments, I don't follow such things because God told everybody too. I do simply what I believe is right.

I didn't say it's a school, I had to go to a religious youth group for many years just because my dad said so(he is not a good person). After i found out I had a choice in my religion I left. The group leader was mad at me about it trying to shove it down my throat.

If this world spun around making me have to be in a certain religion. Then this is not a world I want to be in. If because I choose to walk my own path in my own Independence I was condemned to hell then i would have preferred not existing at all. My existence was a mistake to begin with.

Believe in the world you want to and I'll believe in the world I want to.

[† Talena Mae]

one question Zangetsu: Are you religious?

[s0teric]

Not really. I have never believed in a hell my theory of it is, it is used to fear you into being good. I'll be good on my own terms. There are so many religions the fact that I've never cared since birth is why it's not for me.

I meant the ten commandments, I don't follow such things because God told everybody too. I do simply what I believe is right.

I didn't say it's a school, I had to go to a religious youth group for many years just because my dad said so(he is not a good person). After i found out I had a choice in my religion I left. The group leader was mad at me about it trying to shove it down my throat.

If this world spun around making me have to be in a certain religion. Then this is not a world I want to be in. If because I choose to walk my own path in my own Independence I was condemned to hell then i would have preferred not existing at all. My existence was a mistake to begin with.

Believe in the world you want to and I'll believe in the world I want to.

I agree with you in the regard that if someone tries to make you believe something it won't work. You will ultimately choose what you want to no matter what. However if you read the second half of my previous post/watch the video I linked to, Christians can't not evangelize at all it would be the most heartless thing ever, and I'm sure some agnostics might agree.

The problem with doing whatever you deem is right, however, is that everything becomes right. If you wanna go slaughter some other race, be my guest because morals are then subjective.

On the matter of hell, it is a terrifying prospect that sometimes we take lightly, but if that is your motivating factor then you're only looking after yourself which misses the point. Now I use pascal's wager (see previous post) in atheist discussions because it shows that even if you look at it from an atheist's perspective it is more beneficial to believe in a hell, in light of one's own best interests. This, however, is simply meant to break down the atheist's line of thinking not provide a basis of faith. Pursuing faith out of one's personal interests isn't the right way to go about it and I discourage thinking of Hell in this way, other than to simply reveal inconsistancies in athiest arguments. (if you want an example of this read the discussion of me and clockwork here)

Also, if you see the spun around world as you described as limiting of your freedom, then you are right. If you HAD to choose a religion then you would have no freedom. All religion says is you can have your independance here, but you'll be missing out for the more significant part. Anyone trying to shove it down your throat is either doing it out of ill intentions (most of the time) or because they care for you so much they don't want to see you miss out. However, it seems you'd prefer what you see as independance.

All I try to do is to make people think about what they believe because so many people think that atheism gives them a free ride on the "fact train", which could not be more false. As for an agnostic, such as yourself, thinking about these things is vitally important, because it may reveal the truth you have yet to find, whatever that may be.\

one question Zangetsu: Are you religious?

Yes. Why? Did I win a free gift card?

[seirachan]

I don't really consider myself an atheist. I prefer not having a name but it's not that important. But also when I was about 8 my father preformed a ritual on me so that I would be reborn(I don't mean a campfire of something ridicules just held a bible and said the words) So if that religion does exist I'll be reborn. But I find it a little odd that he believed in reincarnation when he is a Christan.

I did read your post but it's all confusing after 8 hours of hard work

[s0teric]

I don't really consider myself an atheist.

I didn't call you an atheist I called you an agnostic. I was simply referring to the view of Hell you described and how I only mention that view as a tool in atheist discussions. And read the post however many times you like:)

[† Talena Mae]

Then tell me something friend in the bible god said everything has a creator, a maker.

If that is so, how can god just be?

On a side not, I believe everyone should believe what they wish to and NOT have someone force religion down someone elses throat. I have known too many people how have killed themselves because they were forced into a religion.

[s0teric]

Then tell me something friend in the bible god said everything has a creator, a maker.

If that is so, how can god just be?

On a side not, I believe everyone should believe what they wish to and NOT have someone force religion down someone elses throat. I have known too many people how have killed themselves because they were forced into a religion.

He rationalizes his own existence. He is, in itself, a circular argument, as he is eternal, therefore he has always existed. Inversely, we can tell of his attributes from his creation. Like I said he is a circular argument in and of himself. To believe in him is to take a step of faith, there is no denying. However, every other worldview is based on faith, including atheism (despite their denial of this claim) One example is that atheism assumes existence and I've found that a Christian God (as his own circular argument) is the only justification for my existence. Without proof of existence how can you choose a worldview? How do you know what your "Science" is testing is really testable? Another example is that science can't prove where matter came from originally. Just keep asking "where did that come from" to a scientist and they'll eventually say I don't know. Thirdly, I hate it when people say "Science will prove it someday" in response to these questions. I am not opposed to Science (I'm just using atheism/naturalism as an example btw). In fact, I think Science supports religion. But there was my monologue about faith and the rationalization of existence vs an atheistic worldview.

On a side note, I know what you're saying, but it goes both ways. There are Christians that sit in science classes everyday being told they're idiots. To be an agnostic, I think, is the worst spot to be in, because then you're pressured by everyone and it makes you reject most worldviews as a result of that pressure.

[† Talena Mae]

that still does not explain how he can just be if EVERYTHING has a maker. In fact I think he too has a maker, and that maker is the minds of all the people who believed the rantings of the person that calls himself Jesus.

There is (on that side note) is a difference between getting called stupid and killing ones self.

I respect your beliefs but never try to force them down my throat or it will be more painful for you in the end. I have read every bible I could while growing up, and studied lots of different religions, and none seemed the right one, they were the most hypocritical, incestuous, and most bloody book I have ever read (for people who like the idea of having sex with their sister, cousin, mother I recommend it)

that is all I have to say on religion ^.^

[idl12]

My views on religion are simple, God does exists, but, contrary to what is preached by various religious leaders, he won't intervene in our lives if we just pray everyday, Hell, I believe that he doesn't intervene at all, he created us, but doesn't support us to the point of say, stopping a bullet to save the life of a beleiver, why do I say this? simply because from what I've seen, it's the strong believers in God who believe that if they put their lives in his hands they will be safe who are the ones that are murdered, raped, ridiculed and have various other horrible things done to them, whilst the people who are smart enough to believe that they have to take care of themselves, not by praying, but by taking action, namely lots of criminals live rather nice lives, the reality is that evil prospers, hell most criminals don't die because of an evil thing they've done, but because that the few times they were good, came back to haunt them. This is not an assumption, but it is an opinion based on what I see daily.

[s0teric]

that still does not explain how he can just be if EVERYTHING has a maker. In fact I think he too has a maker, and that maker is the minds of all the people who believed the rantings oh the person that calls himself Jesus.

There is (on that side note) is a difference between getting called stupid and killing ones self.

I respect your beliefs but never try to force them down my throat or it will be more painful for you in the end. I have read every bible I could while growing up, and studied lots of different religions, and none seemed the right one, they were the most hypocritical, incestuous, and most bloody book I have ever read (for people who like the idea of having sex with their sister, cousin, mother I recommend it)

that is all I have to say on religion ^.^

It was never my intention to shove anything down your throat, and to my belief I was having a discussion with siera when you asked me as to my religious persuasion. Also, when I'm discussing something I'm not saying YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THIS. I'm just trying to get you to think. It's not because I want to "Christianize" you, It's just if I don't tell you at all, and I truly believe in a Hell, what kind of an asshole am I that I didn't tell you. No one should have to suffer like that, and I believe you are no exception. Your intention for asking the question, how does God exist, I believe, was to make me think and question my beliefs, which is good. The more thought over and tested an idea is, the better, and I'm trying to do the same with others, get them to think as you made me think.

I also believe you're taking your examples out of context. I don't deny such things being in the Bible, but they are used to emphasize the brokenness of man. Christianity is not a religion of "being good enough" because people mess up all the time. It is a religion of redemption. So if we seem hypocrytical, it's because we are. I am one of the most messed up people you can imagine. I'm sure you can vouch for that one, seeing as how I've hurt you, Mae, in the recent past. However, Christians are not meant to be apathetic. If you're really that interested you could read Romans 6, but I doubt you are at this point

(on that side note) I've known Christians that have committed suicide because of persecution. Yes, I know Christians seem to be the majority and you've had bad experiences in the past, but you can't blame a belief for people that force others into religion. Just because you're a christian doesn't mean you have to twist other people's arms into believing. If they don't want to believe, then they won't. Another example is China. Christians aren't allowed to practice their faith in China and thousands die, or are arrested because of it.

P.S. Who said everything has a maker? I didn't. I said God rationalizes his own existence because he is infinite and eternal. So it is logically correct to say an eternal being has always existed. I'm basically saying it is logically possible for him to exist, but I did not prove it. In fact, I basically said he is because he is and went on to give clues for his existence which was what the big monologue was about lol.

[PseudoSage]

I am of the belief that we made Gods rather than them making us be it Christian, Hindu, Greek, Norse, whatever. We humans created each religion and have witnessed others claiming to have seen the divine, yet what makes their answer to the final end anymore valid than the rest? What makes their practices the ones all must follow? It is their faith that theirs is correct and thus we get to the heart of religion: faith. Without anybody believing it, then it is doomed to extinction like the worship of Greek Gods and Goddesses.

As for my personal beliefs about the universe and if there is a creator? Well there is the vastness of the universe and infinite possibilities. What we call karma or divine intervention may just be the ebb and flow of the universe through it's natural cycling. Or perhaps the complex system of stars amass to a giant thought complex that we cannot even begin to grasp.