Religion

[salmun]

doesn't it take faith to believe in evolution and the big bang, you weren't there wen it happened, its called the theory of evolution for a reason. I mean a big bang creating intelligent people with the ability to think have a free will and feel, and pattern and beauty in the world, come on. that takes more faith then believing in a higher power who said he loves us enough to let us make our own choices in life.

its complicated, you don't just throw a bunch of metal pieces in one pile and all of a sudden those pieces gradually come together and eventually evolve into something as complicated as a car, who needs more support to function properly than just some random things that happen over time.

[salmun]

of course religion is dead, man made, but God offers us a relationship, not a set of rules to follow

[† TheChaosLegion]

Evolution isn't just a theory, it's a fact supported by millions of years of archeological evidence, and most of the people who talk shit about it have no actual understanding of how it works. It would be nice to say that everything just popped out of thin air, as some people who don't deserve to exist would say, but that's just not how it happened.

Another fact: The age in which the major religions were formed was a period where people knew absolutely nothing about everything. They came up with convenient explanations to explain the world around them that had no basis in reality simply because they didn't know any better. Today we have the tools to understand the universe, and yet people cling on to the uninformed explanations of an age that no longer exists. This does nothing but slow our progress as a race.

I leave with this interesting, but true, graph:

I'm not an atheist, in case anyone wanted to ask.

[Shinigami King]

I do not believe in a higher power or a god, but if there is, he/she/it does not give a fuck about us.

[DuLake]

First, Thank you Chaos Legion for the simple but accurate explanation. I completely agree.

Salmun, I would be very surprised if you're not just repeating something your pastor or Sunday school teacher said right here, because they're really the only people saying these sort of things anymore.

First, as Chaos put it so well, there is evidence behind evolution and big bang theory. Believing in a deity that we cannot qualitatively interact with, and cannot logically explain, involves much more uncertainty, and therefore requires much more faith. Also, most reputable Christian scientists have long conceded big bang and evolution, so you're kind of late on this whole argument.

Second, your car analogy demonstrates an extreme lack of understanding on your part. Again, I only here this from pastors and really poor apologists. This is a take on the watchmaker argument (you find a watch, so you assume there is a watchmaker). This doesn't really work for two reasons. One, all watchmakers use tools. So even if there were a creator, there would be a method. You're saying that instead of a slow assembly, that the metal was never dumped in the field before it became a car. Not really making sense to me. Next, it makes a terrible assumption. While we've seen watches made before, we've never seen a universe made before. We've seen evidence (which points toward big bang, mind you), but never the actual happening of it. Basically, a watch is not quite the same thing as a universe, and making the analogy is kind of ridiculous. So, scorecard, saying the universe spontaneously combusted from a mysterious deity, still takes more faith than saying that the universe logically proceeded through logical processes.

Third, Saying that God and religion are different is just semantics. At the end of the day, Christianity is a set of rules to follow (ask Jesus into your heart, pray to him, give him praise, etc). To say you can be a Christian without following any of the rules (or commandments in some cases) is kind of breaking the definition. The truth is, every religion has some sort of list of rules like this (Christianity being one of the more strict ones actually). The truth is, and Christians can swear it isn't so, but Christianity is a religion as the word religion is commonly understood. If you want to call it something else, that's fine, but I really don't understand how calling a duck a moose makes a difference. I really hope this little saying ("it's not a religion") dies someday soon, it's such a waste of time.

To wrap up, please do some more study. I respect that you are trying to think through your beliefs, and I encourage you to do so (no matter where that search leads you), but you need to do some more research. I especially encourage you to read books written by writers on both sides of things. By all means, read books by Christian scientists and theologians, but make sure you also read some books by reputable scientists and even other religions. It's never enough to know one side of the issue. Good luck!

Lokisson, Still very intriguing, thank you for sharing. Sounds like you've done a lot. Also, Norse martial arts sounds badass. Just saying. Yeah though, sounds like an interesting life. I have to ask though (I feel like I say that a lot), is there a lot of demand for rituals? I understand that it's probably kept fairly quiet, and I'm sure it's more common than I'd expect. Just very interesting. Do you by any chance have any websites or something that describe Asatru more? It's pretty obvious that I'm a curious person, and it's always fun when I find something that I'm so unfamiliar with (though I've done some reading on Norse mythology, I've never really read about actual practice).

[salmun]

First, Thank you Chaos Legion for the simple but accurate explanation. I completely agree.

Salmun, I would be very surprised if you're not just repeating something your pastor or Sunday school teacher said right here, because they're really the only people saying these sort of things anymore.

First, as Chaos put it so well, there is evidence behind evolution and big bang theory. Believing in a deity that we cannot qualitatively interact with, and cannot logically explain, involves much more uncertainty, and therefore requires much more faith. Also, most reputable Christian scientists have long conceded big bang and evolution, so you're kind of late on this whole argument.

Second, your car analogy demonstrates an extreme lack of understanding on your part. Again, I only here this from pastors and really poor apologists. This is a take on the watchmaker argument (you find a watch, so you assume there is a watchmaker). This doesn't really work for two reasons. One, all watchmakers use tools. So even if there were a creator, there would be a method. You're saying that instead of a slow assembly, that the metal was never dumped in the field before it became a car. Not really making sense to me. Next, it makes a terrible assumption. While we've seen watches made before, we've never seen a universe made before. We've seen evidence (which points toward big bang, mind you), but never the actual happening of it. Basically, a watch is not quite the same thing as a universe, and making the analogy is kind of ridiculous. So, scorecard, saying the universe spontaneously combusted from a mysterious deity, still takes more faith than saying that the universe logically proceeded through logical processes.

Third, Saying that God and religion are different is just semantics. At the end of the day, Christianity is a set of rules to follow (ask Jesus into your heart, pray to him, give him praise, etc). To say you can be a Christian without following any of the rules (or commandments in some cases) is kind of breaking the definition. The truth is, every religion has some sort of list of rules like this (Christianity being one of the more strict ones actually). The truth is, and Christians can swear it isn't so, but Christianity is a religion as the word religion is commonly understood. If you want to call it something else, that's fine, but I really don't understand how calling a duck a moose makes a difference. I really hope this little saying ("it's not a religion") dies someday soon, it's such a waste of time.

To wrap up, please do some more study. I respect that you are trying to think through your beliefs, and I encourage you to do so (no matter where that search leads you), but you need to do some more research. I especially encourage you to read books written by writers on both sides of things. By all means, read books by Christian scientists and theologians, but make sure you also read some books by reputable scientists and even other religions. It's never enough to know one side of the issue. Good luck!

Lokisson, Still very intriguing, thank you for sharing. Sounds like you've done a lot. Also, Norse martial arts sounds badass. Just saying. Yeah though, sounds like an interesting life. I have to ask though (I feel like I say that a lot), is there a lot of demand for rituals? I understand that it's probably kept fairly quiet, and I'm sure it's more common than I'd expect. Just very interesting. Do you by any chance have any websites or something that describe Asatru more? It's pretty obvious that I'm a curious person, and it's always fun when I find something that I'm so unfamiliar with (though I've done some reading on Norse mythology, I've never really read about actual practice).

true, I may not know a lot about this, so I apologies if I said anything that was wrong, I do not wish to start an argument.

[DuLake]

true, I may not know a lot about this, so I apologies if I said anything that was wrong, I do not wish to start an argument.

Humility is worth more than your weight in gold. Kudos for that man. Sorry if I came across ass-ish, I only intend to dismiss faulty ideas and encourage research and independent thinking. Keep studying and, just as (if not more) importantly, keep humble.

[Lokisson]

Evolution isn't just a theory, it's a fact supported by millions of years of archeological evidence, and most of the people who talk shit about it have no actual understanding of how it works. It would be nice to say that everything just popped out of thin air, as some people who don't deserve to exist would say, but that's just not how it happened.

Another fact: The age in which the major religions were formed was a period where people knew absolutely nothing about everything. They came up with convenient explanations to explain the world around them that had no basis in reality simply because they didn't know any better. Today we have the tools to understand the universe, and yet people cling on to the uninformed explanations of an age that no longer exists. This does nothing but slow our progress as a race.

K, keep in mind I'm poking fun. Just as I expect you are .

I love "facts". Adore them! Did you know it was once a "fact" that the world was flat? To some people, the theory of relativity is a non-disputable fact even! How does a theory become a fact? Here's another interesting fact: The steel we produce today, still doesn't match the standards of some of the steels made in the dark ages (the damascus steel produced today is in no way the same quality, durablity or tensile strength of that which was made over 1000 years ago). Interesting science there neh? My workmates back in Australia used to admire my fiance of the time. Trust worthy, reliable, dependable, moral and decent. Facts according to them. Also a fact, according to them, was that the bruises on my face every few weeks must have been my own fault and I really must have done something terrible to her to make her hit me like that. Fun facts! (k, that last bit wasn't so nice I confess, but still there it is.)

Archeology provides us with amazing facts as well. Fossilised material is pretty hard to argue with right? Of course, you (generic "you", not you specific Chaos!!) were there to record it all right? Well, at least know someone who was? No? Hmmm, better hope it wasn't some cosmic entity's idea of a damned good joke then lol. But still, either way (science or religion), a certain amount of belief and faith are called for. Scientists can call it natural law that gravity works, Christians can say it's a miracle of God and us non-monotheistic types have even more obscure beliefs! Keeps us all guessing and talking I guess lol.

Anyways, enough on that. Religion vs Science debates tend towards argument, not debate. Most people who have something to say on the matter have already made up their minds ... and good luck changing it!

Dulake,

Np dude . Tbh, I hold rituals depend on faith and belief. I know some Asatru who hold household rituals every single day, some who only go to 1-2 a year. If that. Personally I I hold a few, but not that many. Hmmm, I'm not fanatical about the daily stuff, but go into depth on the seasonal, yearly and specific rituals. I hope you'll forgive me for not going into greater detail at this stage. Yes, there CAN be a certain amount of call for ritual or ceremony. Everything from blessing a meal, weddings, thyngs, sumble, namings, up to asking a blessing for the coming season. Then again, some people only attend a few of these and pay lip service to the rest. I consider it much like any other faith in this respect.

Websites, etc: Tough call. Sure there are some good ones ... and a Hel of a lot of bad ones. I still have to read some of the latter to get a clue some days lol. Best advice I can give you is to read some actual books (or translations of them) as opposed to sites, try to avoid topics on rituals, runic and magik until/unless you can find some actual asatru in your own area you can sit down and talk to first. Many many people have been led down some truly odd paths and beliefs based on the sales pitch of the nice girl behind the new age shop counter. To be fair, I'm always loathe to start pitching particular sites, books, authors and groups to anyone I haven't actually met in person.

Okies. Scuse me while I go throw on my fire resistant jockies. After the way I've handed comments on both science and religion today I'd say it's a safe bet I'm due some roasting

[DuLake]

Lokisson, first off, totally agree with your summary (as strange as that might sound). At the end of the day logic always breaks down at a certain point so all belief is subject to some, well, belief. While I personally work better with facts (or what we understand as facts, perhaps "empirical data" is a better term) than faith, I firmly respect the next guy's right to do so. I certainly want the more violent aspects of religion to be controlled, and always want to promote unity of mankind, but I've never understood the whole militant thing. Honestly, people have a right to understand things in their own way, so long as they try to remain respectful and understanding to others in the process (Which I desperately hope I have maintained as well).

Second, good info. I appreciate your candor and your restraint. It sounds like an interesting topic and I'll have to poke around a little and see what I dig up. Thanks for being as open as you have been. A true credit to organized religion.

[Lokisson]

I think every organised religion on the planet just woke up screaming lol. Heathen, pagan, and proud of it Organised in only the very vaguest sense of the word. Most of us couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery rofl.

Bizarrely, from someone as martial as myself, I VERY firmly agree with you regarding militants (and fanatics for that matter). Extremism helps no one, hinders most everyone and usually does more harm to any cause, than any good it sets out to achieve. No matter how altruistic the goals might originally have been. (doing a degree in Defence Studies atm, specialising in terrorism ... want to see extremism from any angle? Look no further!)

I hope this conversation doesn't end here by the by. I've enjoyed it thus far, I think most of the comments have been fairly positive and open minded. I'd like to see what more people have to say on the subject. Chaoslegion had some good points, so hopefully he'll get some support in here too.

Oh, and ty you as well DuLake, very cool.

[DuLake]

lol I was kind of wondering if I should say organized but figured "what the hell?"

Yeah, I never understood how militant atheism was a solution to militant religion. Seems like the best way to go is just to stop, and encourage peaceful interaction through peaceful interaction (one of the things Jesus got right). Maybe that's ambivalence, but it seems more desirable than being right.

Yeah, kind of not ready to let this one go either. That or we need to just start a few new topics. lol

[mangababe]

If we got lost in the woods when we were very young and were brought up by wolves or something like that and didnt have anyone trying to make us believe in invisible stuff then we wouldnt know anything about it in the first place!

[Digatu]

Personally, I dont like religion.

I believe it causes a lot of problems in the world but if someone is religous, I wont knock them for it. It just makes me wonder why they have faith in something other than themselves.

I guess whatever gets you through life and what it throws at you.

[vume5]

No one has ever doubted my existence, and I'm a mere human.

Surely God Almighty could easily prove his existence?

So either he doesn't exist or he's at least not interested in proving his existence, and maybe even interested in keeping it a secret.

If God's ways are unfathomable, what does his existence matter? Even if he's almighty, if you can't predict what he likely will or won't do his existence is irrelevant.

But enough talking about a physical god. I'd like to point out that there are many religious people who believe in God as an abstract existence.

Example of an abstract existence: There's no Santa, right? That is, there's no humanoid being living on the north-pole manufacturing and delivering millions of presents every year. And yet, millions of children try to behave before Christmas and millions of children get presents (supposedly) from Santa.

Considering he doesn't exist, Santa sure has a great impact on society, far more than any actual individual human, probably including the President of the USA.

Another example: A state, say Mexico, exists, right? However, if all people would wake up tomorrow believing that it has been annexed by Texas, say for economical reasons, it would simply cease to exist though nothing'd be changed in the physical world.

[mangababe]

No one has ever doubted my existence, and I'm a mere human.

Surely God Almighty could easily prove his existence?

so true!!!

[Lokisson]

If we got lost in the woods when we were very young and were brought up by wolves or something like that and didnt have anyone trying to make us believe in invisible stuff then we wouldnt know anything about it in the first place!

Kind of makes you wonder how any religion or faith began the first place then huh? Not that there's plenty of evidence to demonstrate that our ancestors originally worshiped fire, lightening, thunder, storms, the power of the sea ... then gave names to the beings they thought must be controlling those forces.

[DuLake]

Kind of makes you wonder how any religion or faith began the first place then huh? Not that there's plenty of evidence to demonstrate that our ancestors originally worshiped fire, lightening, thunder, storms, the power of the sea ... then gave names to the beings they thought must be controlling those forces.

That's funny but undeniably poignant. It seems like the atheist position should be that we make gods of things left and right, and the theist would believe it was a bit more selective. Either way it seems to me that we all have some desire for something bigger than ourselves. I would argue that it's an extension of our childhood (who doesn't want their father to come and fix everything for us from time to time), and a theist would say that it's our recognition of the divine (as, among others, C.S. Lewis wrote). I might say we deify a little bit of everything (ever witnessed the commotion after an NBA sex scandal?) as attested to by the sheer amount of deities man has witnessed, while the theist might suggest that all these deities is humanity trying to fill the void. The topic of deity origins, while an intriguing study, really doesn't seem to answer the real question; Who's right?

[Libitinarius]

The problem with people is they will often criticize religion with science, and they do so knowing little-to-nothing about the beliefs and doctrine of the individual they criticize. I try to keep an open mind by doing research on different religions, fully trying to grasp it before I draw conclusions from the most reliable source in the world! (Google/wikipedia)

No one answer can suffice the complexity of our psyche, the big bang theory was made by man and therefore it is not superior to the other beliefs, but equal on terms of man's limitations. Such as carbon dating, not an absolute science, but it gives us close "approximations" of our best possible answer. Essentially, we base our intelligence off the limited information we have at our disposal. I think it would be arrogant to assume we discovered the origins of the universe, when we haven't even fully grasped our own planet (UHH the Ocean). The giant squid was thought to be a myth until a decade ago, as was the possibility of cloning a mammoth in a few years.

In my opinion, people are too cynical with regards to religion. They often say things like, "if you need that crutch in your life suit yourself". What is wrong with principles that refer to love and harmony, since all humans seek this one way or another? It's like saying the love you feel for your girlfriend is pointless, even though we all have the natural desire for human effection. To be ethnocentric of others religious beliefs just causes a dissension between mankind. I think anthropologists have it right, they study all the cultures and religions with culturual relativism. They live in the culture and study it for years to understand the meanings behind such practices/rituals/rites.

[DrumRoll]

Science is based upon empirical truths. Religion is based upon the words written in archaic old books, deferring to the will of an unseen deity.

I can hold science in my hands. See it with my eyes. I champions cogent logic with results and statistics.

Whereas religion......well, we're still waiting aren't we? And the trouble with waiting is that human's don't live forever. Time is a finite resource for us and we cannot squander it on something that has yet to be proved real.

[Ankh]

I was raised christian put realized that it had been pushed on me. After trying to decide by myself I felt I couldn't come to a clear conclusion and have ever since been kinda "eh" about it.

I believe in the possibility of a god or gods.

I don't believe in evolution.