DuLake Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 OK. What if, in the future humans create a working time machine then go back in time kill off the dinosaurs and leave a few humans behind to populate the planet! So we, in fact, created ourselves! Not a bad hypothesis if I do say so myself.Make a religion or conspiracy out of it and I'll join. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leviathan87 Posted August 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 OK. What if, in the future humans create a working time machine then go back in time kill off the dinosaurs and leave a few humans behind to populate the planet! So we, in fact, created ourselves! Not a bad hypothesis if I do say so myself.traveling back in time would make a paradox. witch is impossible but going forwards in time is not. its not a whole lot though with current technology its only like 30 milliseconds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanshlou Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 I dont know what on earth you are talking about but my best guess'll be that aliens could've created us but... where the hell are they now did they die? did they leave? if so then why did they leave?Who's to say they aren't still here and don't keep an eye on us? Possibly somewhere in the depths of the Ocean... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leviathan87 Posted August 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 Who's to say they aren't still here and don't keep an eye on us? Possibly somewhere in the depths of the Ocean...it could be possible. the ocean isn't fully discovered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spidey5443 Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 Not an explosion, just a brain fart.That said, I'm really not exactly sure what you mean. Can you elaborate?When people believe God didn't created them but some EXPLOSION called BING BANG did.....I always like to ask them What explosion created Mercedes benz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuLake Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 Who's to say they aren't still here and don't keep an eye on us? Possibly somewhere in the depths of the Ocean...Who's to say they are though? Empiricism works on evidence, not lack of evidence to the contrary. "Who's to say they're not?" is actually argument ad ignorantium, a logical fallacy.When people believe God didn't created them but some EXPLOSION called BING BANG did.....I always like to ask them What explosion created Mercedes benz Let me guess, this is a take on something you heard a pastor say? This is one of those annoying little catchphrases that I really wish would just die already. It's completely illogical, and betrays an extreme ignorance of modern scientific theory. It's also a completely moot point, as most intelligent design scientists have accepted big bang theory for quite some time.As for the analogy itself, like most of the analogies I hear on the topic, actually work more on my side than yours. Let me explain. You're comparing the universe to car, which could almost be done, since both have fine mechanical workings and are subject to entropy. The problem is (and hopefully Anras will correct me if I'm too far off. He really is much more adept on the topic), that big bang theory never claims to create fine mechanical workings, such as the universe. The big bang created energy, and, by extension, the matter that went on to form the universe. This matter, the building blocks of all we know, is less like the Mercedes Benz, and more like the raw material it was made out of. Of course, humanity doesn't make that raw material, natural processes do. Natural processes, being analogous to the big bang. See, your analogy makes sense, when you take it to it's logical conclusion, but, just like anything else, if you don't give it the time, research and objective thought it requires, you're going to come up with an incorrect answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spidey5443 Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 No. I believe that God created us even if I heard it from a pastor I wouldn't have said it if I didn't believe in it. Just tell me, something so complicated as a human body would be just created by chance? All the complexities and stuff was just created by nature? So tell me who controls nature?? And Science is not COMPLETE, my friend.....It will be when it accepts God created us ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanshlou Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 Who's to say they are though? Empiricism works on evidence, not lack of evidence to the contrary. "Who's to say they're not?" is actually argument ad ignorantium, a logical fallacy.Wasn't really trying to argue it, just providing a possible explanation and additional ideas for discussion is all.When people believe God didn't created them but some EXPLOSION called BING BANG did.....I always like to ask them What explosion created Mercedes benz And when people tell me that God basically went, poof everything exists, I tell them, "Fossil." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spidey5443 Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 And who made the fossil?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuLake Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 No. I believe that God created us even if I heard it from a pastor I wouldn't have said it if I didn't believe in it. Just tell me, something so complicated as a human body would be just created by chance? All the complexities and stuff was just created by nature? So tell me who controls nature?? And Science is not COMPLETE, my friend.....It will be when it accepts God created us ;DOh, I'm sure you believe it. I never questioned that. The thing is that that "cars aren't created in explosions" line has been recklessly promulgated by pastors, and accepted without evidence by congregants.As for your first question, no, I do not believe that chance created the human body. That is a straw man of my position and therefore fallacious. My position is that the human body is the latest stage in a series of millions upon millions of chances, which resulted in a being as complex as the calculation the brought it existence.As for your second question, again, no I do not. Nature was brought forth by chance itself, and then became the tool of pure chance to create further refined beings. Completely unintentional. Hence chance. This question actually hints at a very axiomatic assumption you've made: that existence is a creation and that it has a creator. Neither of these have been confirmed and are based on your hasty speculation. Do you have any proof?As for your third question, again, you are making a very hasty assumption that there must be a being in control of nature. As I have already iterated, blind chance is the most reasonable culprit. This, too, brings up a very interesting assumption you've made. You assume that nature must be created and controlled (because everything must come from something), but you do not consider that, by that logic, the creator must also be created. This is what Aristotle called the third man argument or infinite regress, and you cannot challenge this in a way that is both logical and consistent with your belief (that everything comes from something).Before you ask, realize that I never made or implied this claim, only the claim that probability is causation, and on a long enough timeline deviation must be expected (hence the big bang).Lastly, you make a claim that science is not complete and must bow to a creator deity to do so. This is something of a red herring as I never made such a completion claim, and I never would. The cornerstone of empiricism is that I do not, and likely cannot, perfectly understand my environment, and therefore I study it as best as I can. Even supposing I did make such a claim, it does not logically follow that because science is incomplete, therefore there is a creation deity, unless of course you have evidence. Tell me, do you have any such evidence or empirical data?Again, a lot of claims, a lot of fallacy, and a lot of general ignorance on not only my position, but the topic at large. Until you can show me evidence of a deity, I have no choice but to assume you're wrong. I do encourage you to further explore your beliefs in search of satisfactory answers, but also look into other possibilities, such as evolution (or other religions as well, I would never suggest somebody discriminate).Bah! I feel bad, this is pretty off-topic. Well, I guess it's kind of on-topic. Aliens and creation myths both fall under the heading of intelligent design I suppose. Maybe we should make this into a topic in and of itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Tenma Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 I like your thinking but I don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spidey5443 Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 then why not we try and make some millions of calculation/chances and make a Cool being???Proof of God's Existence: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
†Ferocia Coutura Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 And who made the fossil??Okay. I shall say something that may blow your mind, but, yeah. Adam was created before all animals, correct? In fact, he named them after God created them so they could be his companions because he was bored. So tell me, if God created things in this order: World → Human → Animal, then why are human fossils found to be waaaaaaaaay younger than dinosaur fossils? And also, if He did create Adam exactly the way we are right now, (Which is what most believe), then why is there evidence that several species of humans exist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spidey5443 Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 Who said Adam was created before animals were created? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuLake Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 then why not we try and make some millions of calculation/chances and make a Cool being???I'm honestly not sure what you mean here. Are you saying why not make a deity through chance, or maybe why not make humanity better, or something else entirely? Please explain yourself.What I can comment on is that you still seem to be thinking of the idea of a creator or some kind of end goal. The key here is to think deterministically, not fatally (as in fate and destiny, not death, mind you). The difference here is to think from the initial conditions and how they add together to become something else, rather than thinking of the result specific result, and then going backwards. This is actually reminiscent of circular argumentation, as you've come to your conclusion in your hypothesis.Proof of God's Existence: I watched this, and a lot of this is just bad exegesis to be honest. It's something of a rule of philosophy that you can only know a philosopher by what he wrote, not what you assume he believed, that is to say, how does he know what the author of the Qu'ran meant besides what the traditional interpretation is, since it is apparent that "geological layers" wasn't how people have been reading that one, isolated verse for all these years. What he's doing is taking knowledge he has gained outside of the text, and applying it to the text to extract a new meaning. This is much like how you hear Christians interpret the mark of the beast (from Revelations) as an anti-Christ is going to put microchips in our hands. Decades ago the same sort of Christian's hypothesized that the hand stamp at Disneyland was the mark of the beast. Do you see how it works? We're applying modern understanding to an ancient text and making it fit. That's simply bad exegesis, not a shocking revelation.Further, even if it was exegesis, it's not actually proof of a deity or any other claims of the Qur'an. It only suggests that ancient Arabs knew more about astronomy than we thought they did. How is that proof of any further claims?Okay. I shall say something that may blow your mind, but, yeah. Adam was created before all animals, correct? In fact, he named them after God created them so they could be his companions because he was bored. So tell me, if God created things in this order: World → Human → Animal, then why are human fossils found to be waaaaaaaaay younger than dinosaur fossils? And also, if He did create Adam exactly the way we are right now, (Which is what most believe), then why is there evidence that several species of humans exist?Actually animals still come before humans, it's actually the same order as the evolutionary tree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
†Ferocia Coutura Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 No. In the bible, God made animals so they can keep Adam company, i thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuLake Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 No. In the bible, God made animals so they can keep Adam company, i thought...Not in the Genesis accounts. The order is (if I remember correctly) day/night, sun/moon/stars/, land/seas, fish/birds, animals, humanity, and then a day off. I also want to say plantlife was day three or four. I could be a bit off though as I haven't read the Genesis accounts in depth over the last year.As far as the keeping Adam company thing, that's why (story goes) God made woman, not animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leviathan87 Posted August 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 Who said Adam was created before animals were created?ok to clear this up. the topic is do you believe aliens created humans. not do you believe in god.. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuLake Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 ok to clear this up. the topic is do you believe aliens created humans. not do you believe in god.. thanksVery true, but nobody has spoken up for aliens in about a page, so it's not too surprising that the topic evolved. That said, I'd still like to talk about the original topic, on which I'm not sure you've commented yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spidey5443 Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 @Dulake: Qur'an is the word of God. God challenges humans if you think that Qur'an is not the word of God then make one chapter that can resemble a chapter from Qur'an. Till dat no one has ever made a chapter like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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