Goku vs Superman

[Koby]

The problem with your arrangement/debate kro is that you are severely weakening Goku in all of your comparisons. To make your statements true you would pretty much have to switch out Goku for Krillin. Krillin can just as easily destroy planets and such. As by the end of the series he had surely surpassed Frieza in terms of strength and Frieza could destroy planets in the blink of an eye.

[Krogothwolf]

I haven't severely weakened Goku, I've represented him from what is viewable/readable from the Manga/Anime. You guys are over strengthening Goku with things that never happened. Goku vs Vegeta they were scared they'd destroy the destroy the planet, yet That would be the strength based on Kai attacks, not actual physical attacks. Physical attacks in DBZ wreck the landscape but they don't seem to cause to much beside that, so it's debatable about how strong Goku is physically can he move a planet? No idea because they never show anything that resembles that sort of strength from Goku.. They don't punch people through the earth or anything like that. You guys are over strengthening Goku and under strengthening Superman.

Goku's physical strength and speed though is limited, his blasts may be powerful, but his actual strength of arms is not Unlimited like Pre-Crisis Superman, which is why that version of Superman would win against him hands down. His powers are limitless. The only way Goku would stand a chance against him is to get beaten to a pulp a dozen times so he can come back stronger and stronger each time. But even still, Unlimited strength/speed/endurance/stamina/durability with a set limit of the Saiyan.

Post Crisis Superman is more then likely stronger physically then Goku as well as faster. Superman's speed, being superior to Goku would null and void him truly landing a god awesome powerful Kai Blast, and since Superman doesn't shoot one back, he wouldn't be stupid enough to stand there and try to overpower Goku's Kai blast with his own. Which is how most villains in DBZ usually lose. They try to fight Kai blast with Kai blast. Take that out of the equations and Goku would just be wasting energy blasting them around. Which would turn the fight into a Face Punch. It's just a matter of whether Goku's skill advantage will offset the Speed and Strength advantage of Superman. Which is why a Post-Crisis Superman vs Goku would be a toss up of who would actually win in a fight.

I love Goku and he's one of my all time favourite characters, but you can't ignore Superman as a pushover just because he's the lamest character ever since he's a walking Deus Ex Machina for writers. Everything going poorly...well Superman was just holding back, or Superman wasn't going full out cause he didn't want to harm those poor orphan's that are 3 miles away. It's one of the main reasons Superman was weakened after Crisis of Infinite Earths. A writer was tired of him being so godly. Though with that writer leaving, Superman is slowly becoming Godly again.

[animelover111]

Goku, superman always wins in his world because he's an alien, well so is goku, and everything superman does goku has done as a child (except the x-ray vision), being impervious to bullets, shooting beams, superhuman strength. Also, someone mentioned goku not haveing a kryptonite equivalent, you forget his tail. In the dragon ball series goku trained his tail to be stronger because he would always lose his strength when someone pulled it, that's also how he almost defeated his brother when his son was kidnapped, but goku had a kryptonite equivalent, but superman never tried to get stronger, he never worked on his weakness, his power is equal where goku started, but goku would whip him hands down

aww, ya beat me to it. Not much else I could add to this so there we have it.

Kaio-ken anyone?

[Vokey]

Most Def Goku!

[Nero D. Ace]

But you forget that Ki blasts represented a measure of one's strength.

Have you forgotten that Gohan, who was actually weaker than Goku was able to knock the most dense material in the universe away.

compare to that, a planet must be a pushover.

And the villains didn't always lose because they were trying to blast the Ki with a Ki of their own.

Kid Buu grabbed Goku's spirit bomb and PUSHED it towards him, which is something like what Superman would do. I mean, how do you dodge something that's as big as a planet?

[Krogothwolf]

That dense matter is nothing in comparison to a planet. Considering the size of the thing. A planet has it's own gravitational force as well as the gravitational pull of it's orbit around the sun.

Full power Kai(I think it's Ki not Kai actually) blasts that require time to charge up and don't fully represent their physical strength either, its a condensing of their latent energy/life energy into a blast of energy. Gathering of the Ki increases one's strength, speed and endurance but it still wouldn't be actually anything remotely near Pre-Crisis Superman's. It would be close to Current Post-Crisis but not as strong, which is why I said that one would come down to Skill vs Strength and I'd probably give the edge to Goku but it wouldn't be impossible for Superman to win.

Also, that spirit bomb was nowhere near the size of a planet. And Goku would need the time to gather one strong enough to harm Superman as well as needing to throw it at him. All Superman would need to do was speed around behind Goku and the attack is null and void since it can't hit him. There is also the chance that Superman has a pure enough heart to just bounce the spirit bomb away anyways.

There is also the fact Superman's Heat Vision can be up to the heat of a star it would be debatable if he could actually counter Ki Blasts with it as well.

[Nero D. Ace]

That dense matter is nothing in comparison to a planet. Considering the size of the thing. A planet has it's own gravitational force as well as the gravitational pull of it's orbit around the sun.

Full power Kai(I think it's Ki not Kai actually) blasts that require time to charge up and don't fully represent their physical strength either, its a condensing of their latent energy/life energy into a blast of energy. Gathering of the Ki increases one's strength, speed and endurance but it still wouldn't be actually anything remotely near Pre-Crisis Superman's. It would be close to Current Post-Crisis but not as strong, which is why I said that one would come down to Skill vs Strength and I'd probably give the edge to Goku but it wouldn't be impossible for Superman to win.

Also, that spirit bomb was nowhere near the size of a planet. And Goku would need the time to gather one strong enough to harm Superman as well as needing to throw it at him. All Superman would need to do was speed around behind Goku and the attack is null and void since it can't hit him. There is also the chance that Superman has a pure enough heart to just bounce the spirit bomb away anyways.

There is also the fact Superman's Heat Vision can be up to the heat of a star it would be debatable if he could actually counter Ki Blasts with it as well.

The first time we saw the Spirit Bomb, it fit in Goku's hand, over time, it started growing bigger and bigger.

By the end of GT, it was GINORMOUS!

plus, if Goku uses Heat vision, it'll come down to a Beam struggle and Goku has never lost one of those.

also, consider this - Goku is used to fighting people stronger than him all the time.

Superman on the other hand has always had it easy. Unless there's a shining green rock nearby, he beats the guy up and drops him in prison.

If confronted with Goku, he would face a challenge for the first time in his life and having no experience/skill, he wouldn't stand a chance.

Most of the cartoons I've seen Superman in, he doesn't even bother to dodge the laser/bullets/energy blasts. He just takes them on his chest, falls back, grunts and gets back up.

So, if he tries taking Goku's Kamehameha in the chest as well, you can be pretty sure he's a goner.

[sunfox]

I think Goku will win in this battle

[Krogothwolf]

Please don't tell me you're also basing this off Cartoon Superman? The guy who's power is so limited so they don't have him upstage every other main character? Otherwise the Cartoon would be "Oh Superman is here, show's over." Everyone can beat Cartoon Superman.

Superman's speed is ungodly, the Spirit Bomb is not the quickest moving attack in Goku's arsenal. Plus it requires time to charge up. He was knocked down, broken and ignored by Vegeta as he handled Gohan, He gathered the energies while in route to the fight against Frieza on Namek, He had to have Vegeta fight Kid Buu while he gathered the spiritual energy, he needed the others to distract Omega Shenron while he gathered the energies for that one. Not only that, to take the Energies for the one against Kid Buu and Omega Shenron, he required people to willingly supply them with his energy to defeat an evil that would destroy the universe. Now tell me why, with Goku's personality it is and Superman's, would Goku try to form a Spirit Bomb created from others and why others would help him? Both are Good Guys, and both would be fighting this as a test of strength if anything. Unless you want to make on evil. But even still, Because it's a 1 on 1 fight. Goku would not have the time to gather the energies required to create a strong enough Spirit Bomb. He also wouldn't go into the fight with one prepped.

Superman actually does fight Cosmic beings that are stronger then him, or at the very least equal in strength. There are cosmic beings in DC that superman has fought that powers outstrip that of multiple heroes and have required every Super character just to win.

Goku has drawn at least one Beam struggle, vs Majin Vegeta. Neither one beat the other in that Beam struggle. Just because he never lost a beam struggle to a DBZ character doesn't mean Superman would lose to him. Considering Superman would have a more then likely stronger heat ray blast then a Ki Beam it would be a win for Superman there. Superman takes the blows he knows wont harm him and will avoid the blows he knows has a chance to harm him. There is no way he would sit there and take a Kame Hame Ha on the chin.

[Nero D. Ace]

Goku has drawn at least one Beam struggle, vs Majin Vegeta. Neither one beat the other in that Beam struggle. Just because he never lost a beam struggle to a DBZ character doesn't mean Superman would lose to him. Considering Superman would have a more then likely stronger heat ray blast then a Ki Beam it would be a win for Superman there. Superman takes the blows he knows wont harm him and will avoid the blows he knows has a chance to harm him. There is no way he would sit there and take a Kame Hame Ha on the chin.

okay, let's take the spirit bomb out of the equation.

Even without, Goku has a powerful arsenal of weapons. And you assume that Superman knows what beams are harmful and what aren't? He doesn't have a scouter or even the ability to hide his Ki like the Z fighters.

Also, would you agree that Goku is stronger than Krillin?

in that case, Krillin would throw one of his Destructo Discs at Superman and mind you, he would NOT know if it's dangerous or not. he takes a beam blast at least once to figure out the strength of his opponent.

So, when Krillin's Disc hits him, he would cut up in two, just like a fruit.

And Krillin is WAAAY weaker than Goku, so i'm sure Goku can replicate that Disc technique which is MUCH faster than his Spirit Bomb.

That combined with his Instant Transmission spells doom for Superman.

[Krogothwolf]

Only if Superman is stupid enough to actually not dodge it. Which I would doubt because of the level of abilities his opponents are at. He knows what Guns, Lasers, missile, nukes and what not are, so he knows not to worry about those since they can't possibly harm him. Things he doesn't know he would try to avoid because he doesn't know the effect, happens often in the comics. You're pretty much saying "Superman dumb, wouldn't dodge so that's how Goku would win because Superman would totally just take it on the chin."

Also, Goku actually has used the Destructo Disk, against Buu fused with Gotenks. Considering the Destructo Disk could kill anyone no matter what their power level is in comparison to the user, it's a one hit kill no matter what. So it's a killing Technique and I doubt the Goku vs Superman would be a death match, since Goku doesn't really kill anymore unless he has to, if it is then Goku would have a technique he could win with. But with any Goku vs Superman fight you'd have to take into consideration Personalities as well as power. Neither one would want to kill the other, it would be a contest of skill and strength.

Which isn't the case, also again. Superman can hear anything, including Gokus breathe and heart beat, he would be moving as soon as he heard Goku reappear behind him, which would mean Goku has a very high chance to miss with that attack because he wasn't expecting the dodge.

[Nero D. Ace]

so ... basically, that means Goku has NO chance of hitting Superman?

c'mon, don't you think you're underpowering Goku now? in most of the polls, they've declared him the most overpowered character in all of anime!

Plus, if not a death match, then what are they fighting for? To see who's more powerful?

In that case, Goku would win again because while Superman would quit their fight after they've destroyed a couple cities or so, Goku has that Saiyan pride of his, no matter how small.

He'd continue fighting after a bazillion cities to surpass his limits.

[Krogothwolf]

Goku would have a chance to hit him, but the Destructo Disk's weakness is uncontrollable after thrown and low accuracy. It's just Superman would have a good chance of dodging it. Yeah Anime Character, where as superman is one of the most overpowered Comic Book characters. We're talking about seriously OP'd characters here.

I dunno what they would be fighting for. But neither character would want to kill the other, it's ingrain in their personalities. Just like an over powered Superman would try to punch straight through Goku's stomach, Goku wouldn't try to cut him in half. Neither character will fight in a Death Match if either can avoid it. Personality have to be taken into consideration for these things to.

Put them in a the World Martial Arts Tournament as a fair ground.

Goku would beat Post-Crisis Superman because his Skill would trump Superman's Strength and Speed in that sort of setting.

Put them in the middle of nowhere, and simulate the Goku vs Majin Vegeta type fight.

It would be a match that would go either way. Eventually one of em will be knocked out. It's not like Goku's never lost before, so it's still possible he could be knocked out.

Pre-Crisis Superman, the most OP Hero character ever and the reason why so many God like Cosmic entities were created in DC would more then likely win both fights because everything about him is Unlimited.

[Korashk]

This thread is full of people who've never actually read Superman comics. Krog's analysis on one of the previous pages is the most accurate that things are going to get.

Golden Age Superman would get wrecked

Silver Age Superman would wreck

- Speed capable of taking him trillions of miles in seconds

- Reflexes capable of dodging a punch thrown by the Flash

- Capable of destroying a SOLAR SYSTEM by SNEEZING

- Withstanding the blast of a SUPERNOVA without taking a scratch

There is no feasible way Goku could beat that.

And Modern-Age is a toss up.

Put them in a the World Martial Arts Tournament as a fair ground.

Goku would beat Post-Crisis Superman because his Skill would trump Superman's Strength and Speed in that sort of setting.

That would also be a toss up because you're forgetting (or just didn't know) that Moder Superman was trained in hand-to-hand combat by the likes of Wildcat, Mongul, Wonder Woman, and Batman.

[throwaway319fg]

Goku could win without powering up. All he has to do is bring a piece of Kryptonite, hold it to superman's chest, and beat away. But then again, the sun might just revive superman again.

[Korashk]

Goku could win without powering up. All he has to do is bring a piece of Kryptonite, hold it to superman's chest, and beat away. But then again, the sun might just revive superman again.

Ignoring the fact that Goku WOULDN"T do that because he likes fighting his opponents at their strongest, you're making the assumption that kryptonite turns Superman into a sniveling weakling. Modern-era Superman was capable of surviving inside of a Red sun while surrounded by a box if kryptonite.

[Koby]

The thing is kro continues to underpower Goku and overpower Superman. He keeps going on about Superman being unlimited power, yada yada and pretty much a god. However the weakest version of Superman, Goku had him beat when he was a little kid. The strongest version of Superman, Goku could do EVERYTHING Kro said Superman could do at the time Goku beat Frieza, which was simply a weak Super Saiyan 1. Goku nearly doubled his Super Saiyan 1 strength before actually acceding to Super Saiyan 2.

Superman may be the most overpowered comic book character, but Goku is by far the most powerful anime character. Goku has more experience, and more training and he continues to push the limits and surpasses the limits over and over again. Goku's strength really is unlimited and knows no bounds. Set a limit? Goku will break it.

Superman on the over hand? I've never seen him ever try to train to become stronger. He did train just a little to control his new abilities as he learned them as a kid, but he has no actual training experience and his strength pretty much remains the same.

Even is Superman was to somehow pull off matching Goku in strength, hell maybe even surpassing him (not possible), Goku would clearly still have the advantage in experience.

[Korashk]

The thing is kro continues to underpower Goku and overpower Superman. He keeps going on about Superman being unlimited power, yada yada and pretty much a god. However the weakest version of Superman, Goku had him beat when he was a little kid. The strongest version of Superman, Goku could do EVERYTHING Kro said Superman could do at the time Goku beat Frieza, which was simply a weak Super Saiyan 1. Goku nearly doubled his Super Saiyan 1 strength before actually acceding to Super Saiyan 2.

I'm pretty sure kro's analysis has Goku winning a guaranteed two matches with a third being a toss up that Goku very well could win. I do not see how that is "underpowering Goku and overpowering Superman."

Superman may be the most overpowered comic book character, but Goku is by far the most powerful anime character. Goku has more experience, and more training and he continues to push the limits and surpasses the limits over and over again. Goku's strength really is unlimited and knows no bounds. Set a limit? Goku will break it.

It's nice to think this, but there's no actual evidence that it is true. We're working within what is known.

Superman on the over hand? I've never seen him ever try to train to become stronger. He did train just a little to control his new abilities as he learned them as a kid, but he has no actual training experience and his strength pretty much remains the same.

Anecdotal evidence, just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it didn't happen. (It did happen by the way).

Even is Superman was to somehow pull off matching Goku in strength, hell maybe even surpassing him (not possible), Goku would clearly still have the advantage in experience.

raegface.jpg

I like Goku just as much as (usually more than) the next guy. However, I don't let that bias get in the way of the actual debate.

[Krogothwolf]

Again Koby, there is no overpower of Superman and underpowering of Goku. You admitted early you have limited knowledge of what Superman can actually do. Goku's strength is finite, he does gets huge power boosts from being beaten to a pulp and recovering from it, so training isn't the only way Goku's strength increases. Hell Vegeta's whole plan to defeat Frieza was to be nearly killed so he could come back stronger.

Yes Goku does a shitload of training to get stronger too, but he still isn't an actual match for Pre-Crisis Superman, he just isn't. Superman's powers and abilities are far beyond anything Goku could even dream of. Goku had no were near anything Pre-Crisis Superman. He couldn't move nearly as fast, he wasn't nearly as strong, he couldn't survive a supernova nor flying through the core of a sun. (I'm not sure how long Goku can actually survive in the vacuum of Space though.)

Post Crisis Superman vs Goku would be an actual fair fight. It would be entertaining to. And I do remember Superman got training from those individuals, but I rank Goku's Masters above all of them in terms of skill any day of the week, they are just that much better then their DC counterparts. But Post-Crisis's strength are still greater then Goku. Superman has actively displayed the abilities I have listed, guessing that Goku can do some of the stuff based on his fights against the big bads, like moving planets, flying across the galaxy in a few hours is guess work at best. Even still, he hasn't displayed enough during his fights to say he could do either of those.

[Koby]

It's nice to think this, but there's no actual evidence that it is true. We're working within what is known.

Anecdotal evidence, just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it didn't happen. (It did happen by the way).

So you say it's not right to assume stuff about Goku based on what weaker characters in DBZ was able to pull off, but it's alright to assume Superman had training? As you said "just because you haven't seen it...".

raegface.jpg

I like Goku just as much as (usually more than) the next guy. However, I don't let that bias get in the way of the actual debate.

I never said I liked Goku. I'm simply debating Goku vs. Superman from what I have seen or know of the two and honestly for this debate to go anywhere it would need to be more clear as to which Superman as there have been so many changes made. As you and Kro both stated though, the majority of the types of Superman is trumped by Goku. Now it's just a matter of one, maybe two types of Superman. I'm honestly not sure if I have seen either of those two, but if you know Goku, he always finds a way to become stronger. Even if he does lose, he'll just come back even stronger. Despite what Kro said, there really is no limits to how strong Goku could become.

Goku is shown to continuously improve and work on improving. Never settling, while Superman on the other hand has never tried to increase his strength or even succeeded in doing so. I believe Superman has limits based on this. I guess the question to ask is can Superman get stronger?