Re-encoding HEVC10 to Hi10P without loss in quality (please help)

[AlterationAngel]

Hi everyone. I am new to video encoding, and, I do not know where or what to search for. "Googling" just does not work for me. The topics or search keywords are so rare, I get no results for what I need. 

 

I need an Open Source tool that is extremely advanced in quality, but "mouse only user" friendly - has a GUI. I need such a tool to re-encode a HEVC video to H264, without any loss in quality or video bit-rate. 

 

about what I need:

- has a GUI with mouse support (heavens we are in 2017)

- can encode from BDISO

- can re-encode a mkv video track only (no audio) 

- can modify the video track during encoding (anti-aliasing, de-banding, de-blocking, de-noise, collor correction effects) 

- basically, what do amazing groups use? Beatrice-Raws, ANK-Raws, LittleBakas, FFF, Coalgirls (Tenshi), BlurayDesuYo, Tsundere, Final8, SallySubs. Those are/were the only sane groups that did excelent quality. (But now some just ran away to XDCC IRC, Baka.bt, AnimeBytes, like cowards, from DMCA.) ^^

- so how do they do it? Is it a secret?

- how and what do they use to encode from a BDISO to a ~10MB/s bit-rate video (with anti-aliasing, de-banding, de-noise)?

- After all that, re-encoding an already encoded HEVC video track to H264 should be a breeze. 

 

about the video:

1920x1080 HEVC 10, 10-bit, variabile fps, constant bit-rate 12.6 MB/s

 

I want to re-encode that, to a more "GTX760/770/780/780Ti/TITAN,GTX970/980/980Ti,GTX690/TITAN Z" friendly video codec... so that I can *watch* my damn video. 

 

Notes:

 

- I am an archivist, so I have zero knowledge about video encoding. 

I do have knowledge about video quality. (At least I know what my eyes like.)

- I only have MKVToolNix for muxing (I OUT mux all dubs and localised subs)

- I do not believe into the term "placebo quality" (refering to video bit-rate), until someone posts comparison screenshots of a low bitrate video vs high bitrate 1920x1080 video, streched (real time upscale) to screen edges of a PC monitor with (at least) a 2560x1440 or 3840x2160 native display resolution. 

 

Thank you! 

 

PS. Any other advice, other than about video encoding open source software, is not appreciated. ^^

Edited December 29, 2017 by AlterationAngel
say no to meme-plebs

[Catar]

2 hours ago, AlterationAngel said:

I need such a tool to re-encode a HEVC video to H264, without any loss in quality or video bit-rate. 

 

This right here is impossible, and you've already lost before you've even started.

 

Re-encoding means a loss in quality. It's automatic. You're compressing a lossy source with a lossy algorithm, it's impossible to not lose quality. Bitrate can be preserved, but that's mostly just bloat at that point. It would be like transcoding a 128kbps mp3 to a 320kbps mp3. If you are an archivist - as you profess to be - I strongly recommend you instead look into acquiring the BDMV for whatever video you're looking to acquire, and encoding from the source disks instead of re-encodes. 

 

In addition, your request is actually a bit strange, as you claim you want x264-10bit video for compatibility. Hi10 encoding has the lowest compatibility out there, since there are zero hardware decoders for it, and there never will be. Your GPU does not decode this video, only your CPU does. Your GPU can be forced into assisting via things like MadVR shader hacking, but it doesn't truly work, and you still need a decent CPU to playback Hi10 video.

 

Meanwhile, x265 HEVC video does have hardware decoders, so you're actually moving away from your intended goal here. If you want compatibility, you want 8-bit Level 4.1 or lower H264 AVC video, as that will be compatible with most everything these days. Otherwise, ignore compatibility entirely and use whatever you're most comfortable with (most high level encoders do x264-Hi10p or Hi444pp right now).

 

 

To answer your other questions:

2 hours ago, AlterationAngel said:

- has a GUI with mouse support (heavens we are in 2017)

- can encode from BDISO

- can re-encode a mkv video track only (no audio) 

- can modify the video track during encoding (anti-aliasing, de-banding, de-blocking, de-noise, collor correction effects) 

- basically, what do amazing groups use? Beatrice-Raws, ANK-Raws, LittleBakas, FFF, Coalgirls (Tenshi), BlurayDesuYo, Tsundere, Final8, SallySubs. Those are/were the only sane groups that did excelent quality. (But now some just ran away to XDCC IRC, Baka.bt, AnimeBytes, like cowards, from DMCA.) ^^

- so how do they do it? Is it a secret?

- how and what do they use to encode from a BDISO to a ~10MB/s bit-rate video (with anti-aliasing, de-banding, de-noise)?

The groups you mention all use various custom builds of x264, often in-house builds they've made themselves forking off the original open source encoder. These are always going to be command line interfaces. We actually prefer these to mouse-driven GUIs in most cases, because they're far easier to automate (clicking through interfaces gets very exhausting). In addition, most also use filtering scripts created using AviSynth or Vapoursynth to further tune their encodes and filter for specific scenes/colors/etc. I don't do any encoding myself, so this is all second hand knowledge. Most work directly off of a cracked BDMV, or sometimes just a BDRemux of the raw video from one for more convenience.

 

The closest you can get to GUI encoding software these days is MeGUI, though many like using Handbrake as well. These can do the things you want, though for specific debanding, filtering and color correction, you'll want to look into the AviSynth/Vapoursynth filtering.

 

 

Also, of the groups you mentioned, several of those are pretty weak encoders (SallySubs and Final8 in particular, the latter being a prolific re-encoder and prone to often losing detail and overcompression). You might start looking further abroad for your encodes. Beatrice-Raws is one of our go-to best sources, but other excellent groups include Yousei-Raws, Winter, philosophy-raws (on a good day), and fussoir. 

 

 

 

Finally (as a mod): please do not abuse the content tag system. Tagging for certain content types is fine, but you really don't need to tag for mentioning every single encoder you brought up - and why did you tag "Loli" and "Hot girl"...?

[AlterationAngel]

Thank you for explaining everything to me, and thank you for taking the time to write a detailed reply. 

 

Sorry if I packed up a lot of questions at once, I tried to stay short.. 

 

OK, so you've definetly cleared my mind about all that. 

 

5 hours ago, Catar said:

If you are an archivist - as you profess to be - I strongly recommend you instead look into acquiring the BDMV for whatever video you're looking to acquire, and encoding from the source disks instead of re-encodes. 

 

Yes, for my favourites, I acquire the best version (usually Coalgirls, Beatrice or FFF, Desuyo looks amazing too and is my fav subs group) and some BDMV. But what I'm interested in now is another live-action video (concert). I always acquite my beloved concerts from Vmoe, and.. somebody else. Atm, the new concert is only available in a HDTV HEVC10 version by Vmoe, so I had no choice but to take it. The BD will be out in January 2018. 

 

5 hours ago, Catar said:

In addition, your request is actually a bit strange, as you claim you want x264-10bit video for compatibility. Hi10 encoding has the lowest compatibility out there, since there are zero hardware decoders for it, and there never will be. Your GPU does not decode this video, only your CPU does. Your GPU can be forced into assisting via things like MadVR shader hacking, but it doesn't truly work, and you still need a decent CPU to playback Hi10 video.

I really did not know my GPU(s) don't decode Hi10 even when I set it to in LAV! That would explain why I always see ~10% GPU usage even on Hi10 1080p 60 fps videos. I guess my small issue is actually not an issue at all..

 

About live action:

I have an archive of 1080p videos in Hi10 60 fps, with a constant bitrate of ~16Mb/s, and also 1080i videos in HEVC10. Now, all those in HEVC10 are 30 fps, with a constant bitrate of ~19Mb/s. All them run smoothly like butter. 

 

Now about what was bothering me:

The HDTV HEVC video I've mentioned earlier, slows down from 60 fps to extremely slow. So slow it looks like slow motion. I wanted to re-encode it so that I can watch and enjoy it. It looks amazing in most scenes. I got the idea of re-encoding it because it thought my graphics card does the video decoding.. but it looks like my CPU did all the work all the time.. So after all that I still want to re-encode it. Is the lag because of my cpu? Which is a bit funny because that 60 fps HEVC10 video is only 12.6 Mb/s.

 

Btw, I always use the latest K-Lite Codec Pack (Full) and madVR. I use default settings. 

 

5 hours ago, Catar said:

Finally (as a mod): please do not abuse the content tag system. Tagging for certain content types is fine, but you really don't need to tag for mentioning every single encoder you brought up - and why did you tag "Loli" and "Hot girl"...?

I apologize, I admit, I found it extremely funny. I could not sustain mysel. I just thought "omg what a cute tag system!" I didn't want to be mean towards it, I just teased it a bit. ^^ 

 

About Loli and Hot girl... it's directly related to the videos in subject...

 

So what do you think, will the HDTV video look bad if I re-encode it to H264? What CRF would be ideal to stay at least close to the original encode? 

Edited December 29, 2017 by AlterationAngel
spelling

[YukinoAi]

On 12/29/2017 at 12:20 AM, Catar said:

On 12/28/2017 at 9:49 PM, AlterationAngel said:

I need such a tool to re-encode a HEVC video to H264, without any loss in quality or video bit-rate. 

 

This right here is impossible, and you've already lost before you've even started.

Technically, you could encode a .hevc stream into .h264 in lossless mode and it would make it more compatible without quality loss. Since it is lossy->lossless (e.g. not transcoding), there would be no quality loss. The resulting stream would be quite large however.

 

On 12/28/2017 at 9:49 PM, AlterationAngel said:

I need an Open Source tool that is extremely advanced in quality, but "mouse only user" friendly - has a GUI. [...] basically, what do amazing groups use? [...] Is it a secret? [...] with anti-aliasing, de-banding, de-noise

From the design perspective, GUIs make sense if what you are trying to do is reasonably straightforward and either 1) there are not many possible states or 2) you agree not to expose all possible states to the user. Encoding is exactly the opposite. There are endless states, encoding settings, some of which are appropriate to certain streams but not others. Which options make sense for the particular stream is something you get by understanding video/encoding and filtering theory. So, it makes more sense to choose which states you would like to invoke dynamically as needed by looking at the source and your own repository of knowledge. Command line interfaces (CLI) are better for that. Filtering (for AA, debanding, and de-noise) works similarly.

 

That is not to say there is not software that can perform encoding or filtering in a user-friendly way with a limited set of options. Rather, either way, you will need to rely on you knowledge and experience of handling video to determine what settings to use, and having a limited set of options that which GUIs tend to impose is not always a worthwhile trade for user/mouse-friendlyness.

 

On 12/28/2017 at 9:49 PM, AlterationAngel said:

I do not believe into the term "placebo quality" (refering to video bit-rate),

Then... why are you bothering to encode at all? Think about it. If you honestly think video bit-rate does not matter then just do a DVD or BD mux of the original. Done.

 

If the original has issues like banding and whatnot, then filter it, and encode losslessly. It is about ~12GB per 24 min episode using x264 btw.  Video bit rate is not a problem for you right? Right?

 

Encoders that transcode, including from BDMV or raw DVDs normally try to maintain good quality relative to the bitrate they allocate but transcoding is, by-definition, a lossly process. If the Beatrice-Raws transcode looks the same, visually, as the BDMV then the difference in bitrate between the BDMV and the encode is what people refer to as "placebo quality." No perceivable quality retained when compared to another stream of much higher bitrate. If you do not agree with the premise of transcoding, which is to remove placebo quality, then you should only accept raw sources (BDMV, RawDVD, WebRips as appropriate), or losslessly encoded video.

 

If you want to learn about encoding, check the signature link of my post and go down to the "Encoding" section. Keep an open mind, like being flexible as to whether it has a GUI or CLI or the various compromises each encoder makes when deciding upon all the various settings.

 

One of those hot-button areas when deciding on what to compromise on is compatibility. Typically, the more tweak settings to increase quality, the less compatible the stream. If you want perfect compatibility, use software like https://www.plex.tv/ or https://emby.media/ which of course compromises quality. Want it to not compromise quality? Then do lossless mode, which decreases compatibility with your network/computer/tv etc.

 

Learning starts when you agree you know nothing about a subject. Learning ends (or never begins) when you have made up your mind about it.

 

[Aanok]

I am in no way an expert, but what I normally use is ffmpeg, which has excellent encoders. Per se it is used from the command line, but there are a few GUI wrappers available, like FFmpegYAG. I've never used them and I imagine most advanced use will be done by exposing a CLI in a textbox more than with actual buttons and widgets, but the good thing about ffmpeg is that it's very extensively documented. Even beyond that, you're bound to find somebody on StackOverflow or whatnot that's already sorted out whatever command and combination of filters you might need. It's not the simplest thing to use of course, but it is also really not as hard as it looks. Don't let the command line intimidate you.

 

Like folks up top are saying, read about, find some guides, experiment around. Godspeed