Boys Will Be Boys

[† Emotional Outlet]

One of my Facebook friends recently posted a status about their little boy getting suspended and calls home about the fact that he keeps touching other children. Things like goosing other kids, tapping one on the head with a pencil, and covering a girl's mouth with his hand so she couldn't talk.

 

Some of the reactions.

 

[my child's] teacher said she undertands he's being a boy and not meaning to harm anyone, but its POLICY. ugh.

A lot of children from other countries who are more shy than your average red blooded murrrican.

We have had it And Isaac is 4. We told him bc u never know how other kids feel about touching keep your hands down until they ask first. We wave and blow kisses.

Boys are physical no matter what.

 

Related set of GIFs. For those who can't view it, it's a series of GIFs portraying a young boy (far younger than my friend's child) continuously trying to hold onto a little girl who keeps pushing him away. She pushes him away at least six times and even attempts to run away, but he chases her into the wall.

 

Some of the reactions on this particular page (you can view the notes to see what everyone else is saying).

 

Can I say I love this little girl for standing strong

But I kind of wanna punch all the adults who watched like this hsit is cute.

She said no.

He needs to learn to respect that

Agreed…if adults were present, watching this and laughing, that’s exactly how the boy is going to learn that it’s cute, and it’s how the girl is going to learn that nobody’s going to back her up when a boy is grabbing her. It’s the adult reactions that really gender this situation.

 

So here's some of the problems I have with the story I mention above from Facebook. He goosed another child, meaning he touched another child's bottom. It should be good practise to teach a child not to touch sensitive parts of another person's body, even in play. He covered a girl's mouth with his hand to keep her from talking. This kind of behaviour, if unchecked, can manifest into something pretty nasty.

 

I don't think my friend is a bad parent or intends to lead their child astray, but it's interesting to see the different ways people draw the line when it comes to children touching other children.

 

It's almost condescending to assume a child won't understand boundaries. Kids are pretty bright, they can grasp a lot of things--including the fact that you shouldn't put your hands on another person without permission. There are definitely cultural considerations to be made--personal space isn't the same across different countries, much less individual people. For that reason, I think it's best to assume you can't touch someone unless you have permission to--why assume the opposite?

 

What do you think about this kind of behaviour? Do you think anti-bullying measures--especially "no touching" rules--are going too far for little kids? Do you think it's harmless behaviour? That "boys will be boys"?

[Kyle_Dimetri]

That kid's behavior needs to be checked and corrected because if it keeps up, soon he will begin to think he has alright to touch any girl he feels like, whenever he feels like, where ever he feels like and needless to say, the other child's parents would not think this to be cute and the excuse that "boys will be boys" will fall on deaf ears regardless of the fact that he is still a learning child. Yes its okay for kids of both sexes to interact with each other as this is necessary for their development but parents must remember to teach their child/children common boundaries

Edited March 4, 2013 by Kyle_Dimetri_09

[Dark_Angel13]

Boys will be boys is a lame fucking excuse for bad behaviour, fix that shit up now and get that out of your child before he becomes some pervert who ends up in prison. I think the parents should be teaching their kids not to touch other people, to keep their hands to themselves like I was taught.

[AxelVIII]

I agree with Dark, it's just a pathetic excuse for either bad or lazy parenting. That shit should be unacceptable in all cases. "Boys will be boys" should mean that they will either have fun the way they should, or will get into "Age expected" mischief, not doing things that would upset someone such as being physical with other people. Simple answer: "Boys will be boys" is just an excuse, nothing more.

[† Emotional Outlet]

It seems to me people expect all little boys to rough house and be physical in their play--which is fine as long as all participants are willing. It's hard to tell in the case of my friend if their son's behaviours were unwanted or unwelcome by the other child, but dollars to doughnuts the little girl who got her mouth covered didn't like it or want him touching her mouth like that.

Some of the responses regarding the series of GIFS state that because they are so young, they have no concept of what they're doing. Which I can buy, were it not for the fact that others yet distinctly remember watching the video and that the adult on the other side of the camera was encouraging the child in overalls to keep trying to hug the other child.

Like I mention, I see a lot of little kids at the library. If they're walking around like that, they are usually old enough to understand that you shouldn't touch other people like that--at least if the parent is responsible enough to do so. Even if a child doesn't understand, at what age does it become appropriate to try to correct misbehaviour? Why not get in the habit of trying to correct behaviours from the start?

[Dark_Angel13]

 Even if a child doesn't understand, at what age does it become appropriate to try to correct misbehaviour? Why not get in the habit of trying to correct behaviours from the start?

 It never becomes appropriate EO and parents should be in the habit of correcting that stuff from the start, any good parent should know that. Now I don't have children but I know how I was raised and I'm sure most others were raised the same way. Keep your hands to yourself, watch your mouth etc etc. It's not that hard to teach those things imo

[† Anras Rune]

Oh boy. I don't know whether to troll this thread hard or offer my opinion. Either way won't be pretty so lets be on the safe side.

 

That seems like standard 4 year old behaviour. Nothing out of the ordinary. When I was four I ate a frog, a little girl hit me with a rock (split open my head too) and I set my house on fire. It is something little kids do, they do not understand the consequences of any action and curiosity still rules their mind. Showing them boundaries and the like won't sink in properly till their cognitive functions actually begin to mature, so "teaching them control" won't really work til they grow up a little. 

 

His behaviour is harmless, and biologically programmed. The male psyche is ruled by testosterone, even as a child, boys are biologically conditioned to assert dominance, conflict and probe boundaries or their position in life. Touching other kids is nothing compared to the horror stories I have heard or borne witness to, but again the modern pandering to create the human pansy is alive and strong. So I cannot agree more with whoever wrote "Boys are physical no matter what." on the facebook thread as it seems they actually understand the human condition.

 

As to those gifs, I swear to god my faith in humanity was rocked to the core (then again, the interwebs does this to me daily, so it ain't that big a deal). It was this that quite frankly made me think about trolling this thread. The comments are pathetic femnazi drivel that makes, as always, little to no logical sense. Being an assertive woman? Rape culture? The patriarchal men-are-entitled-blah-blah-blah? Really? Modern men are pretty much pussy whipped from birth to heed to every fricking whim and they are saying that? Those comments are written by the most pathetic people I've laid my eyes on today and the reason most people view femnazis as exactly that.

 

But enough of that.

[† Emotional Outlet]

TW: Rape

 

Dark, Do you mean that it's always appropriate to try to correct certain behaviours, regardless of age, or that you should never try to correct it? I'm presuming the first based on the rest of your response, haha.

 

But definitely, I think it's something people should do the moment the kid is born. No reason to put it off or assume that your kid is too stupid to comprehend until they're in college.

 

Rune, if you'd like to troll the thread, then you will most certainly be in violation of forum rules. It's fine to disagree or having a dissenting opinion, there's no need to be hostile or trollish about it.

 

Not all men are "pussy whipped" from birth. Rape culture, if you're unfamiliar with the term, is what normalises and even condones rape. It's what results in people teaching women "Don't get raped" instead of teaching men "Don't rape others". It's what results in people who think they are entitled to sex with another person just because they are nice to them, that if they show their ledger of nice actions ("I fixed your car! I listened to you whine about your ex!") they deserve sex. It's what results in victim blaming, in making people feel ashamed and weak for getting raped. It's what results in people--men AND women--refusing to report sexual violence, because they will be silenced and made fun of. It's what dehumanises men and women, reducing them to mere biological function that may not even be correct. It's what makes people think it's okay to have sex with people who are sleeping, with people who are too drunk to even stand.

 

No one is saying the children in the GIFs are rapists or victims--at least I'm not. The issue most people have, and the issue I have, is with the adult(s) watching these children and condoning this behaviour, to the point of encouraging the child in overalls to keep trying despite the fact the child in the dress doesn't like it. It's not cute--the child in overalls could have gotten hurt from being pushed so much, and the child in the dress is being taught no one cares about their desires.

 

If my child cracked open someone else's skull with a rock, I would not consider that normal childlike behaviour. I would correct that as soon as possible--that kind of thing is not okay. And if my child set fire to my home, I would be taking a long hard look at how I am raising the child and what led to the destruction of my home.

[† Anras Rune]

TW: Rape

 

Dark, Do you mean that it's always appropriate to try to correct certain behaviours, regardless of age, or that you should never try to correct it? I'm presuming the first based on the rest of your response, haha.

 

But definitely, I think it's something people should do the moment the kid is born. No reason to put it off or assume that your kid is too stupid to comprehend until they're in college.

 

Rune, if you'd like to troll the thread, then you will most certainly be in violation of forum rules. It's fine to disagree or having a dissenting opinion, there's no need to be hostile or trollish about it.

 

Not all men are "pussy whipped" from birth. Rape culture, if you're unfamiliar with the term, is what normalises and even condones rape. It's what results in people teaching women "Don't get raped" instead of teaching men "Don't rape others". It's what results in people who think they are entitled to sex with another person just because they are nice to them, that if they show their ledger of nice actions ("I fixed your car! I listened to you whine about your ex!") they deserve sex. It's what results in victim blaming, in making people feel ashamed and weak for getting raped. It's what results in people--men AND women--refusing to report sexual violence, because they will be silenced and made fun of. It's what dehumanises men and women, reducing them to mere biological function that may not even be correct. It's what makes people think it's okay to have sex with people who are sleeping, with people who are too drunk to even stand.

 

No one is saying the children in the GIFs are rapists or victims--at least I'm not. The issue most people have, and the issue I have, is with the adult(s) watching these children and condoning this behaviour, to the point of encouraging the child in overalls to keep trying despite the fact the child in the dress doesn't like it. It's not cute--the child in overalls could have gotten hurt from being pushed so much, and the child in the dress is being taught no one cares about their desires.

 

If my child cracked open someone else's skull with a rock, I would not consider that normal childlike behaviour. I would correct that as soon as possible--that kind of thing is not okay. And if my child set fire to my home, I would be taking a long hard look at how I am raising the child and what led to the destruction of my home.

 

Hmm, seems a part of my post didn't go through. The part that was missing said the following. The girl that cracked my skull open, did so because of what her mother "taught" her about talking to boys. Her mum told her that if a boy touches you that you hit them back as hard as you can. So because I made her the goose in a duck duck goose game, she made me the goose after by hitting me with a rock. Me setting the house on fire was an exaggeration really, all it was was a couch pillow. I got past the child guard on our fire and tried to pick up a piece of burning wood. Threw it on the sofa when I burned myself. My point was that kids are inherently stupid and only learn from experience and consequence. As a result of the things I listed I never picked on girls later in life (in fact I became a bit of a white knight, lol.) and knew to stay away from really hot things.

 

If the trolling thing was a threat I don't appreciate it, I know the terms and conditions and know that I didn't troll. Relaying that fact seems a bit superfluous.

 

And the rape culture thing is again something that makes me feel really down about the state of the world. I never said you were saying that, I was saying that the comments on the page those gifs were at were. Which is again something that I found inherently lacking in logic, that a group of people are saying that the kid is acting like a rapist or will grow up to be a racist. Or at least that is the vibe I'm getting from it. I know what rape culture means and I know that it is pretty much complete and utter bullshit. Or at least where I live and the places I have been. I know friends who, just cause of some girl who in the act wasn't satisfied decided to cry rape after and he know isn't allowed to pursue his dreams of being a teacher. The "don't get raped" attitude became, in his case, a pretty much instantaneous destruction of his entire life because the victim always gets the sympathy. He appealed later btw, the court found the girl guilty of perjury but the damage was already done. He couldn't continue his studies despite him in fact being the victim and was pretty much ostracised from every female in his university, despite the overwhelming proof that proved his case. I know that men are pussy whipped because people using the term rape culture and its myriad of apparent definitions, synonyms and related subjects make out everything with a phallus as an unstoppable rape machine, born unto this world with the express intent of raping everything that has a hole to fit in. Sure rape is bad, but so is racism, war, disease and many other things. Yet we do not try to persecute everyone that is linked to them by something as flimsy as an apparent lack of sensitivity on the subject. We do not vilify the entirety of Africa just because they have a high amount of AIDS sufferers, or at least not to extent that the apparently marginalised rape victim makes the rest of human kind seem.

 

Insensitivity is an integral part in human nature. It has shaped our culture. Hell, rape has shaped our culture in the past. What I'm trying to say is the comments on those gifs basically screamed the femnazi dogma of all men are secretly plotting to rape everything or have already done so, despite the hypocrisy this dogma includes.

 

Meh, I doubt I'll continue posting in this thread now, I've said my piece.

 

TL;DR: The kid shouldn't be punished. Rape is bad, but things like "rape culture" advocates make it worse. Life is full of shitty things.

[Dark-hunter]

adding on things like  if you don't do something  he might become a rapist or worse he might become something worse   is not helping in any way when figuring out what to do if u should do anything bout a kid that does things like    in fact it makes it worse   stupid crap like that  is never good  

[† Mute point]

Learning right from wrong is something that kids that age are not able to do, but learning consequences for those specific actions is something every kid needs to learn.

 

First, boys are by nature a physical creature. They like to touch, to hit, to wrestle. But someone needs to teach them early on that they should only do those things with others who want to. The difficulty in this, is that kids will test boundaries, and will often do something they know mom doesn't let them do if mom isn't around.

 

Encouraging any child to do something to someone who doesn't want it done is wrong. Either tell him/her to stop, or let the other child make them stop. But above all else, be consistent. Discipline, not punishment is crucial. Yes, there is a difference.

[† Emotional Outlet]

The fact that you stated outright you thought about trolling this thread is unacceptable. If you know the terms and conditions, then it is reasonable to expect that you are responsible and mature enough to act accordingly. Again, it is fine to disagree and have a different opinion, but there is no need to be abusive or hostile about it. If you honestly think I am threatening you, then I apologise for being harsh. In turn, I ask you please be considerate and don't threaten to troll threads in the future.

 

===

 

I'm not saying people need to shape their kids into perfect little drones or that people who don't raise their children in a matter that I agree with are bad parents. No child can be monitored 24/7 without it being creepy and expensive. Everyone draws the line at different places and culture does play a lot into it.

 

The culture I grew up with, you don't let random people in your personal space, and personal space extends at least a foot radius around you. if someone touched my butt, clapped their hand over my mouth, or tapped me with a pencil, I'm going to be a little frustrated if it's someone I don't know or someone I'm not comfortable with touching me. I especially didn't like people touching me when I was a kid, and I know full well that people never took me seriously when I tried to tell someone about it.

 

Kids can comprehend the concept of "I don't like this". So to tell a child who states or otherwise demonstrates outright, "I don't like this", and to ignore their desire not to be touched just because "boys will be boys" or "kids will be kids", doesn't sit well with me. Yes, kids play and kids rough house--I'm not saying kids shouldn't be allowed to wrestle or make mistakes. I make at least half a dozen mistakes within the first hour of waking up. But everyone should be a willing participant in this behaviour. It's a concept that should be applicable regardless of how old you are--whatever you do, do it with consent freely given, not coercion or force.

 

If you just smacked her on the head with your hand, I don't understand why she picked up a rock instead of simply returning the smack with her hand. That seems excessive.

 

For the fire thing, though the damage is less extensive, I would still reconsider how I'm raising the child and what I'm teaching them, in addition to being more careful about where I leave things. In the same way that if, for any reason, there are firearms in my household, I would take care to teach and explain to my children exactly what it is, what it's capable of, and what I expect of them when it comes to handling these items. And I wouldn't leave it just hanging around. Any dangerous items should be a point of education, even items that have potential for destruction like alcohol or tobacco--they weren't hidden, forbidden items in my household, but I learnt well enough to stay away from them.

 

Maybe kids don't understand morality or right from wrong, but consequences, cause and effect are things I think they can grasp even from an early age.

 

"I touched the fire and it hurt my hand. Maybe I shouldn't touch fire."

"I ran into the street and Dad got mad at me. Maybe I shouldn't run in the street."

"I pinched someone's butt and they got mad at me. Maybe I shouldn't touch people without permission."

 

But for the last one, apparently some people think it's okay to continue to goad people even after they've expressed their displeasure. And it's not just kids who do this, adults do it all the time. I tell someone I don't want to be tickled, to stop touching me. They take this as invitation to keep touching me. Then I'm branded as a shrill and hysterical killjoy because I'm standing my ground about not wanting to be touched.

 

Or how about where people think it's okay to express crushes by hurting the person they have a crush, that it's so cute when a little kid teases another to the point of tears. "Aww, young love." We teach them if they don't like something to ignore it, to not stand up for themselves.

 

===

 

TW: Rape

 

As far as crying wolf on rape, there are far more unreported assaults than there are falsified accounts. Even just consider the fact that men are far more unlikely to report a sexual assault because it's emasculating and humiliating--the number of false accusations don't overshadow how much this actually happens. I have seen people be harassed and attacked for standing up and making a report against someone. They say they were asking for it, that they shouldn't have been drinking so much, that they were trying to cover up for their regret. Why anyone would want to put up with that just to make a false report is beyond me--it's more likely that they'd say nothing and suffer alone.

 

Yes, there are a lot of terrible things happening in the world, but to have the attitude that just because we can't be perfect, we shouldn't even bother being good isn't going to drive us forward. I'm not going to try to put these atrocities in a hierarchy or say one is worse than the other. That's not my call to make. We should be trying to better all of these.

[Breathless]

(What does TW mean? I've learnt it as Team Work from games but that's obviously wrong here)

Anyway, rather than biological or anything, what this kid lacks is manners. I basically raised myself, and I actually hate who and what I was until recently. If I could go back and raise myself with my current personality from the get-go I would, but I can't. So I'll raise my (future) children how I want them to be. But I know nothing about raising kids, so take what I say with a grain of salt. To me "Boys will be boys" never had anything to do with how physical a boy was. I always thought it was more so, they don't mind getting down and dirty. And even if boys are naturally more aggressive/dominant, that can literally be taken away from them. Like Rune said, something about breeding a human pansy. That's not exactly how I would put it, but you can literally breed personalities. It's a bit harder with society and all, because you aren't the childs only influence. However, if you were the only interaction the child got, you could teach him anything and he would believe it. You could make yourself a God in his eyes. Now imagine if society taught boys that girls were to NEVER be harmed, or even touched. Sure, boys are naturally more dominant but you can literally wire how people think (especially if you're starting from Day 0). 

Propaganda isn't only for war, it's for everything.

I'm no psychologist, parent, or anything. I'm just some random on the internet! - So everything I say is just personal opinion, nothing else... Grains of salt people, take it when reading this.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Breathless

[† Emotional Outlet]

TW means Trigger Warning. Basically a warning for any folks who might need some time to brace themselves to read about something. It's a carryover from my Tumblr explorations. The Tumblr social justice scene is pretty funny sometimes (I cannot take otherkin seriously for the life of me), I'll post up hilarious bits I find on my Facebook.

 

===

 

But definitely, unless you've got your kid locked up with no access to anything, there are influences everywhere. It's part of the reason why I believe in education rather than sweeping stuff under the rug. Like I had sex ed in middle school (it was mostly about periods and anatomy... not very helpful), but most of what I learnt about sex--the nitty gritty, so to speak--was from the Internet. It was a very... I don't know, I guess it was kind of a detached way of learning about it? Maybe detached isn't a good word, but it felt a little unreal. I think if I had learnt about it from my dad, it wouldn't have been such a strange experience.

 

Anyway, I guess it all depends where you stand on the nature vs. nurture debate. I lean a little heavier towards nurture myself, which is why I think the onus should rest a little heavier on parents taking responsibility for their kids rather than throwing up their hands and saying, "what can I do, kids are kids".

 

And in terms of "wiring" people, I know societal beliefs are constantly in drift, and a lot of it tends to be in response to when people bring stuff up instead of sweeping it under the rug. Things like interracial marriage, homosexuality, dating over the Internet... It's slow going (I think in one state, interracial marriage was illegal up until the 70s?), but it gives me hope that it's never pointless to talk about things, even if it feels like it's too big to handle.

[† L4ugh]

The goosing sounds like the kid is seeking attention. In my experience that could be the result of a crush, being bullied or ostracized on the playground, trouble with one or more friends, or some kind of trouble at home. Kids should have learned touching boundaries before hitting school age, it's necessary for enrollment where my nephews and niece go school. 

 

What I see when I look at that gif is a little boy in full on play mode. It doesn't even register in his happy little mind that she is unhappy. He's taking her pushing as some kind of game, probably fueled by the laughter of the adults. It probably started as a hug, but when the adults laughed the first time he hit the ground, it became a game. A say this because of the second to last gif. He isn't even trying to put his arms around her anymore. He's just smiling and waiting to be pushed for the amusement of the adults. The adults, imo, are entirely to blame for this behavior, and he will stop when they stop laughing.  I don't believe he'll grow up to be a rapist because of this, but he could be doomed to a life as a ventriloquist, which is equally as bad. 

 

I don't have kids of my own, but I have become a surrogate father to my nephews and niece. I have noticed this behavior in all of them, even the niece. The slightest giggle can doom you to repeating that which you just giggled at for the next 30 mins. You can tell them no, or that it's bad, but it won't register because they saw you laugh.

 

laughing adult > stop, don't, no, quit, for the love of god, etc, etc

 

Edit: I removed my lame jokes to prevent anymore tangent posting.

Edited March 6, 2013 by L4ugh

[Dark-hunter]

if god really intended u to not have kids then the ability wouldn't even be here in the first place

[Digatu]

What I see when I look at that gif is a little boy in full on play mode. It doesn't even register in his happy little mind that she is unhappy. He's taking her pushing as some kind of game, probably fueled by the laughter of the adults. It probably started as a hug, but when the adults laughed the first time he hit the ground, it became a game. A say this because of the second to last gif. He isn't even trying to put his arms around her anymore. He's just smiling and waiting to be pushed for the amusement of the adults. The adults, imo, are entirely to blame for this behavior, and he will stop when they stop laughing.  I don't believe he'll grow up to be a rapist because of this, but he could be doomed to a life as a ventriloquist, which is equally as bad. 

 

Pretty much how it comes across to me. It's a game to young lad.

 

If this had been my lad when he was that age. It wouldn't have happened the 2nd time.

 

One thing is that it will teach him women will be forever putting him in his place all of his life

[Malyssa Rahl]

It's always "Boys will be boys" until the girl punches him in the face. Then it's "Don't hit!"

[† Mute point]

if god really intended u to not have kids then the ability wouldn't even be here in the first place

 

...What?

 

No, seriously... What?

 

This makes no sense... In or out of context with the thread...

 

People having, or not having kids is not the issue here. The issue is teaching bad behavior, usually without meaning to. Laughing when they do something wrong is one of the worst mistakes you can make.

[† Emotional Outlet]

Yeah, I don't know, haha. It seems like it was supposed to be a cutting and pithy response, but I don't get it either.

 

I've been reading Odd Girl Out, and wanted to see what you guys thought of "girls will be girls".

 

There seems to be a consensus that, whether because of genetics or societal influence (your choice), there is almost an expectation that boys will be physical. This extends to negative social aspects like bullying and fighting. There's also this sort of expectation that boys will be bad and mess up.

 

On the flip side, that kind of physicality tends to be discouraged in girls. From a young age, they're taught to be caregivers, that to be a good girl, you have to be "nice". While most everyone (at least in my experience) is taught from a young age to be nice, play nice, share and be friendly, this is especially emphasised for girls. You have to be nice, you don't fight, you don't yell, you don't raise your voice, you don't hit. Girls aren't granted the expectation that they'll be bad and mess up--after all, girls are made of sugar, spice, and everything nice, but boys are snips, snails, and puppy dog tails. Girls are good by nature, boys are bad by nature.

 

When girls are angry at each other and fight, the automatic response isn't to duke it out by the flagpole at three. The response is to shut the offenders out of the relationship, to pass notes and gossip, to issue the silent treatment and stare daggers at each other. The response is to send aggressive text messages and Facebook posts. Because direct confrontation is discouraged for girls, these alternative aggressions are more popular. There are even studies that say girls are more likely to cyberbully than boys are.

 

(To say nothing of the fact that the worst girl bullies are most likely to be the best friend of their targets. The relationship itself is the weapon, possibly more effective than any juicy gossip or blackmail they may have.)

 

Some people think that these behaviours--the cattiness and cruelty--are just part of being a girl growing up and there's nothing you can do about it. Do you think this is really the case, that it's just ingrained in human nature? Or is it something that is encouraged by society?

 

I have a really hard time buying that a lot of issues, especially things like this, are just due to biology and sheer human nature.