Boys Will Be Boys

[Malyssa Rahl]

I can honestly say that... Whatever it is that causes the whole gossiping and behind the back talking stuff, it is either NOT genetic, or the gene for lesbianism cancels it out. I was always a pretty aggressive and physical girl.. but I never hit anyone who didn't deserve it. Playing in sports was a great outlet. If it hadn't been for basketball I'd probably have been in trouble a lot.

 

I was raised to be a nice girl and not hit, and all that other stuff.... It just didn't stick.

[Dark-hunter]

Yeah, I don't know, haha. It seems like it was supposed to be a cutting and pithy response, but I don't get it either.

 

I've been reading Odd Girl Out, and wanted to see what you guys thought of "girls will be girls".

 

There seems to be a consensus that, whether because of genetics or societal influence (your choice), there is almost an expectation that boys will be physical. This extends to negative social aspects like bullying and fighting. There's also this sort of expectation that boys will be bad and mess up.

 

On the flip side, that kind of physicality tends to be discouraged in girls. From a young age, they're taught to be caregivers, that to be a good girl, you have to be "nice". While most everyone (at least in my experience) is taught from a young age to be nice, play nice, share and be friendly, this is especially emphasised for girls. You have to be nice, you don't fight, you don't yell, you don't raise your voice, you don't hit. Girls aren't granted the expectation that they'll be bad and mess up--after all, girls are made of sugar, spice, and everything nice, but boys are snips, snails, and puppy dog tails. Girls are good by nature, boys are bad by nature.

 

When girls are angry at each other and fight, the automatic response isn't to duke it out by the flagpole at three. The response is to shut the offenders out of the relationship, to pass notes and gossip, to issue the silent treatment and stare daggers at each other. The response is to send aggressive text messages and Facebook posts. Because direct confrontation is discouraged for girls, these alternative aggressions are more popular. There are even studies that say girls are more likely to cyberbully than boys are.

 

(To say nothing of the fact that the worst girl bullies are most likely to be the best friend of their targets. The relationship itself is the weapon, possibly more effective than any juicy gossip or blackmail they may have.)

 

Some people think that these behaviours--the cattiness and cruelty--are just part of being a girl growing up and there's nothing you can do about it. Do you think this is really the case, that it's just ingrained in human nature? Or is it something that is encouraged by society?

 

I have a really hard time buying that a lot of issues, especially things like this, are just due to biology and sheer human nature.

i don't really care if neither one of you get it  i looked at the past post but could not find the post that led me to saying that  so oh well 

[† Mute point]

The only post it even remotely made sense as a reply to was the one before it, and even that is a stretch... because he didn't say anything about never having kids, just that he doesn't have any right now, and that he takes care of others anyway.

 

There is a disturbing trend in this country of letting the TV do a lot of the work of raising your kids. TV can be a great educational tool, but you can't use it to replace good parenting.

[† Emotional Outlet]

I guess it's fine if you don't care that we didn't understand it, but random comments like that don't really have a place in a serious discussion.

 

Educational shows are great, but it is definitely troubling when you don't give them any context or expand further on what they learnt. Like I'm pretty sure if you just plop your kid in front of Sesame Street every day for an hour and do nothing else, they probably aren't going to come out of it for the better.

 

There's studies that show children who don't watch TV or have their exposure limited tend to be closer to the family and become sexually active at a later age. It also has a hand in killing the desire to read and their attention spans. I don't think we need a study to prove that--a quick glance through the Dub vs Sub threads where almost every other post is "I don't like reading" or some variation thereof is proof enough for me.

 

(Apparently there was also a survey that said over half of US adults wouldn't give up TV for under a million dollars. Not even having cable or other form of TV would save you hundreds every year at the least.)

 

But yeah, growing up, alternative aggressions like that were a huge part of my life. I remember having a falling out with some girl friends of mine in elementary or middle school and we'd make these stupid quizzes to take jabs at each other. Like we couldn't just say, "I'm upset that you didn't say hi to me" or whatever. If it was something that you're "not supposed" to get mad about, your feelings were moot. You don't want to make the other person mad, so you don't say nothing. Even if you're mad at them, if they say they're mad at you, you apologise and say you don't want to be in a fight even though inside you're absolutely reeling.

 

It didn't matter if you cried yourself to sleep or it made you want to crawl into a hole and die, you were being hysterical and overreacting. So we shoved all those feelings right back down our own throats, pretended that everything was okay, until it eventually culminated into a bizarre cluster where finally something we were allowed to be mad about came up. Of course, that meant all those other slights--you didn't invite me, you didn't call me, why didn't you tell me this, you got a better grade than me, you stole that boy from me, you didn't talk to me--came back up too.

 

And it's still happens. If I don't have a "justifiable" reason to be upset about something, I'm supposed to sit down and shut up. If I want to deck someone, no matter how "good" of a reason I have, I'm being hysterical and out of control. I'm supposed to be quiet, suck it up, and be nice. "Be the bigger person", they say. "Don't feed the trolls". At least if you threw a punch, it sort of resolves the issue, or at least puts it out there to be settled. Instead we're taught to be passive and don't stand up for yourself--"just ignore it".

 

Hearing "don't be a doormat" and having those attempts to not be a doormat shut down as being hysterical and out of control just pours on the irony.

 

That kind of stuff makes it hard for me to believe that it's just human nature or biology. There's definitely enough evidence out there--as Mal pointed out--that with a different upbringing, these things don't have to be a part of a person's life. If it was just biology, I think there'd be a lot less variation in the various societies and cultures of the world. I don't know why it's so hard for some people to admit that societal values have just as much to do with a person's development as genes do.

[† L4ugh]

Dark-hunters comments had to do with some lame jokes I had at the end of my last post. I had them inside some [Anti-child] and [/Anti-child] tags. I figured that would be enough to show that I wasn't serious, but I under estimated his willingness to troll. I deleted all of them once I realized he was trying to troll another thread. I apologize for my involvement in causing this tangent. I'll know to keep that stuff out of my future post. I hope we can get back to the main topic now.

 

=======================================================

 

I blame a lot of the things people do on genetics and evolution, but I also strongly believe that a persons environment influences genes and their development. I don't believe, however, that girls are less aggressive than guys. I honestly think they are more aggressive. I witnessed more fights between girls in high school than I did guys. The outcome of those fights were also a lot worse than the one between guys as well. Guys seem to fight for dominance and stop when someone gives up. Girls seem to fight to destroy their enemy and don't stop until someone is utterly humiliated. The intention of this seems to be about making the loser as undesirable as possible. I think cyber-bulling is just a means of accomplishing this goal without incurring any personal damage.

 

I think the biggest reason that girls get the label of being good, has to do with the fact they had to be good for years. For a long time women had no rights and did what they were told, or paid the consequences. They were just playthings in a male dominated world, so a lot of that aggression went unnoticed. A lot of the old world ideology is still with us today, and I think that has a major influence in our overall environment. We've evolved to a point were our own opinions of each other effect our development more than the actual world we live in. Think of it like this, if you had to choose between a hungry tiger, or having your best friend tweet that really embarrassing photo. Which would you choose? I know several people that would take their chances with the tiger, I might even do it myself.

 

I do agree with the idea that it's more tolerable for a little boy to be bad than a little girl. This all goes back to those old world ideas, and the idea that boys must grow up to be strong while girls must be gentle. I think this just mask the true nature of boys and girls though. I'm not saying that girls are more likely to get in I fight either. I'm just trying to say that a female will deal with her enemy in a more brutal fashion than her male counterpart.

 

[† Emotional Outlet]

I've read somewhere (maybe in a book, I can't remember) that when you separate two fighting boys, their aggression towards each other tends to settle down once they break eye contact. With girls, if it came to blows at all, separating them might make it all the worse. Whether or not that's true, it's also been my experience that when dudes fight, it isn't often a long-term thing, and they don't use the relationship itself as a weapon.

 

A lot of stories in Odd Girl Out are about very abusive relationships, the kind of thing you're more likely to expect out of a romantic relationship than a platonic one. Some of the girls in there describe the ending of the friendship as a breakup. They tear each other apart but still force the target into staying in the relationship in a love-hate dance more fitting on a Sunday soap than a playground.

 

Regarding cyberbullying, I learnt pretty early on to be afraid of personal messages. I've got into fights with people over messages on Myspace (ahahahaha) over the years, and the more drama I ended up involved in, the more afraid I was to look inside those little digital envelopes. As I grew up and that drama shifted to text messages, I'm grew afraid of my phone. Even now I still get kind of afraid to look inside threads and my personal messages on the forum if there's the slightest chance that someone is upset with me (I always assume it's a non-zero chance that someone is upset with me). It's not a malicious act on my part, but it makes me nervous when things start looking even remotely like familiar territory. In most cases, I'll gladly take the tiger over having to deal with any social media fallout.

 

I used to fight that way, where I'd sit and wait until I was "justified" in my anger, then I'd bring up everything that ever upset me. I think the fact that females of all ages aren't supposed to intimate these feelings of anger and sadness is why you end up with that stereotype about how women bring up old shit from six months ago--because they weren't allowed, for one reason or another, to be mad about it. Now that they have a reason (or now that they've reached their breaking point), it all comes flooding back. It's something they've been trained to do since they were young.

 

I've noticed that when most of the guys I've known get upset, it tends to be a rather instant thing. There's no waiting until three weeks down the road and they're randomly slamming cupboards about it. If I accidentally upset another woman, I have no idea if she's secretly seething over it, so I spend ages agonising over all my potential missteps.

 

After all that, I'm not certain whether it's because of my genes or because I was conditioned to behave that way. My early years are kind of a blur, and I'm pretty sure even if I remembered, I lacked the cognitive ability to piece it together in a manner that didn't end with a conclusion of "I'm a piece of shit human being". But I definitely don't buy that girls aren't aggressive or that they can't be as bad as boys growing up. I don't know if it's necessarily worse, but if I had a chance to do it again and choose between getting punched in the face or having to deal with the Myspace messages, my face would probably look a lot different today.

[† Mute point]

The longer you hold feelings in, the longer it takes to get them out. If your temper is quick to explode, it's also (usually) quick to cool down. That's pretty much how I was in my earlier school years. When people knew damn well I could hear them and they'd still talk about me like I wasn't there.. In high school, all of the things I overheard made me laugh most of the time. Because I know that they assumed I couldn't hear them at that point.

[Snowburden]

Boy, I do not know why I even spent 20 minutes reading most of these posts. LOL

 

Anyway, I'm not here to judge on anyone on how to raise your or her kid. But in the end, it's all up to you go discipline your child, if you don't quickly (such as when they grow up), you all know where that child might fall into - drugs, prison, violence, rape, etc., we've all seen it. As sad as it is, it's mostly the parents fault in the end (of course not always, but a huge majority of the time it is). I've had several friends that released their feelings and life story and such, and a lot of the time they state that they hated their parents, or their parent wasn't there for them (over the years), etc. (Of course not exactly they stated that, but in the conversation I concluded that that was the issue. I'm a problem solver for peoples problems, it's who I am.) And you know where their lives were at? Drugs, Jail Time, stuff like that... Of course you can debate all you want on whether it's the parents fault or whatever (it's kinda a thing that you believe in, and that's what I see), but a lot of the time it is. Of course not ALL the time it will be the parents fault, but still...

 

You see, I am a Yahoo Answerer, I specifically answer questions in the relationship section, you know, peoples problems. And I see a lot of questions relating around family, and especially their parents. Anyway, where I'm getting at, is I help people with their problems in the Internet world and real life, so that's why I'm saying this.

 

I know I got off topic a tad bit, but it still falls on what we're talking about.

 

Anyway, I could be a parent at any time, (But of course I need a women first lol) and I know a specific way I will be raising my children. I believe in discipline at a very early age, so such things as this could be avoided. Because I want to teach my kids things that they will avoid and not do, that you see some kids do and get themselves in trouble. But of course I will teach my kids ways of being logical and what's right and wrong. I know what you're thinking, don't all parents try to do that? Yes, but in the end, not to a full extent as I believe. You'd be surprised what parents will say, that they'll do it, but really their kids are out of control. You see, I don't want that. My Mother didn't teach me shit in life, I had to learn everything on my own, and how I did it was observe my surrounding and learn that way. The way I am today is very logical and I'm an observer, I think outside the box on just about everything (not many people do, or know how to do it in the first place), and from all that I am an individual who can solve problems in such a complex way that others can't. Anyway, I'm not bragging here, just stating how I do things.

 

So from all that, that's how I want to teach my youngsters when I get some. You don't need to explain parenting to me, because I know it all (even though I'm not a parent yet) that you can know from research. Yes I know that once you experience it, it's a different story. Yes I know that, so don't explain it to me. I don't mean to be rude to anyone, but don't bother explaining parent-hood to me, because I already know what I need to know...

 

LOL anyway, now you know a little about myself from this, and how I view parenting.

 

The whole "Boys Will be Boys", that's complete nonsense! Complete crap that is, sure their whole instinct and such that some of you say, but come on, really? I don't by it. Sure maybe while they're REAL young that whole "Boys Will be Boys" could apply, but that's because you haven't gotten to that specific point in discipline yet. But if that whole statement when they're like 8-their teenage years, yeah, I don't by it. That just states that you as a parent that didn't discipline them thoroughly, or good enough.

 

Not trying to chance anyone's views or anything, that's how I feel on the subject.

[Kinara Uzumaki]

"Boys will be boys" is such a sorry excuse that makes my blood boil when I hear it. In my country, although the people bury themselves in tradition  and customs, most of their rules and their way of bringing up children make no sense. Boys grow up to be brutal, dominating, angry men and girls grow into meek women with suppressed dreams and emotions. They are not given the freedom they require, forced to follow the rules of their parents and elders and eventually turn very bitter towards others and their own lives. Otherwise the youngsters will go to extremes to break the rules and end up destroying their lives due to their uncontrolled actions. They lean towards adultery, deceiving, lying, stealing, drugs, alcohol and so on. The worst part is when the girls who make a mistake somewhere are blamed and insulted for the rest of their lives, ostracized by society, forced into unhappy relationships and unhealthy habits resulting in murder, suicide or abuse. But the men are rarely held responsible when they engage in rape, or adultery, abuse of kids and wives, or commit crimes. Boys will be violent, but girls are the same. Just because they've been brought up to be meek does not make them non-violent. However, simply saying "boys will be boys" does not condone their actions.

 

Better to say 'Kids will be kids' - mischievous, daring, bold, rude, curious - but protect their childhood by teaching them the right values - respect, love, honesty, sympathy, kindness - help them keep their innocence by giving them the proper education (not simply book knowledge but also about leading a good happy purposeful life and then make sure they grow into praiseworthy adults who make mistakes but learn from them, know where to draw the line between right and wrong and above all, set an example for others by cultivating good traits in themselves.

[† Emotional Outlet]

I agree with you for the most part, Kinara, but when I hear people say "boys will be boys", it's often done in a dismissive manner meant to condone and forgive the child's behaviour. If Jimmy keeps tugging on Jenny's hair even after she's asked him several times to stop, some people will look at that and tell Jenny, "Oh, just ignore him. He's only doing it because he has a crush on you." Then they'll say something along the lines of "boys will be boys" and titter to themselves as they reminisce about when they were eight years old and someone shoved mud down their pants because that's totally the way you should show your love for other people.
 
It seems to me people have this expectation that boys and girls will show their affections in less than direct or proper manners before growing up (although I think we all know that "growing up" doesn't necessarily mean maturing) and learning that you shouldn't pull on people's hair to show you like them, and I agree--there are studies that have been done that show kids don't always have a full grasp of their emotions and how to express them, and that's why they do things like punch the people they like.
 
I wasn't born knowing how to speak English. I had to be taught how to speak and read. I had to be taught how to play the clarinet and use the computer. Certainly, there are things I have taught myself and continue to teach myself, but I didn't get where I am by myself. I doubt I would be very successful at teaching myself how to do things if I weren't taught the basics like literacy or how to piss in a toilet.
 
The same applies to socialisation. We aren't born knowing how we should act in polite company. We aren't born knowing how to express ourselves and our emotions to each other. We have to be taught--look at all the different ways culture has affected how people behave. Things like eye contact and how you eat your meals are different in almost every locale.
 
So sure, kids aren't born knowing how to express themselves. That's why we have to teach them. The problem is that we aren't successfully teaching them certain things, so people don't always grow past the hair pulling--they may not be literally pulling hair, but they're doing it in other ways.
 
When people see Jimmy pulling on Jenny's hair and dismiss it as "boys will be boys", they are adding their voice the chorus of others that Jimmy hears as he grows up. It's another voice that says, "It's okay to act this way." There's a reason abusive relationships are romanticised and people don't actually see them as abusive. (Think Beauty and the Beast, think Twilight.) There's a reason people think, as they're being thrown around and called names, "They actually really love me and they're actually a really good person deep inside."

 

Another issue is when do the boys stop being boys and start being accountable for their actions in some way? Because I've heard this phrase often enough in middle and high school, and at those ages, the potential for damage is much greater than some eight year old clapping his hand over another student's mouth.

[Kinara Uzumaki]

You've got a good head on your shoulders EO and I'm glad to have met you. I'm realizing that you think very carefully before you act, talk or state an opinion. You have an excellent way of reasoning and explaining things plus the facts you state are very solid and valid.

 

Unfortunately many people don't share our views and the whole "boys will be boys" scenario will never be completely eradicated. Let's hope that we can at least educate as many people as we can. Violence for no reason, invasion of one's privacy, freedom and rights to life, abuse of any kind - all these qualities are not acceptable for any reason whatsoever.  

[LordLi1]

i think what should be of concern in  where the little boy learned these behaviors. this i not  normal spontaneously generated behavior for  a children perhaps you should ask your friend  if her child is seeing someone get abused on regular basis be in real life or even on a TV show. and please do look in to this i work with abused children and children that "act inappropriately" normally a child dose not initiate these actions unless they have seen t or its been done to them.

[† Emotional Outlet]

The problem with indicating there's the possibility of abuse is a lot of people take that real personally, haha. I'm not close friends with this person either, we were just coworkers.

 

There are a lot of behaviours and mindsets that many people don't view as problematic, like this child putting his hand over a girl's mouth or touching other kids' butts--as demonstrated with my story and some of the replies in this thread. The mother of this child also disagreed with the school's decision to suspend him for this behaviour, so that's another roadblock.

 

But I definitely agree that children do learn from their environments (including the people around them) and it's likely he's picked up a lot of behaviours and attitudes from the people around him. One of the things feminism strives to do is challenge these mindsets that it's normal for children to abuse each other, to consider the possibility that telling kids it's okay to pinch and hit kids they have crushes on may not translate well later on in life. (Because then you get people who are like, "I only hit you because I love you" and that's all kinds of terrible.)