lemmingllama Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 An elementary metaphysical question for you: does freedom exist? If we look at one end of the spectrum, we think that we are fully free to make whatever decisions we want. Every decision is entirely our own choice and that everything is like "the trousers of time", where each choice makes us go down one leg rather than another. We are really free and can do whatever we want. However, is this really the case? You have the freedom to kill someone, but since you have been raised to see that killing is bad, then you wont just go and off some random person because you were free to do so. So are we really free if everything is affected by past events and also by the laws of nature? Finally, what about fate? Fate says that everything is predestined and that people follow one path throughout their whole lives. Even thinking we are free may be part of your fate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leviathan87 Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 i dont get why they call it that. freedom would be u can do what ever u want even "kill" its all bull shit anyway ull never be free.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katongo Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Does freedom exist? depends how you look at it, looking at it in this way you are free to do as you please as long as your are with in the rules & laws of a given place e.g voting is a good one, your are only given two options yes or No and freedom come in the fact that you are the one making the decision or you can look at it has the fact that you have the same rights has another person. But of course you will not get the freedom to do what ever comes to mind because you will disrupt the balance, which you have already mentioned Law of nature and of course past experiences due to the consequences of true freedom. What about fate? am afraid i don't believe in fate like the saying goes, "Life is what you make of it" what happens next is up to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malyssa Rahl Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 We are free to do anything, including break the law, but there are others who are free to take away your freedom if you do break the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmingllama Posted November 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 Heres part of a paper that I wrote awhile ago saying freedom doesnt exist. Maybe you might want to chew over this.In this paper, I will prove that freedom does not exist. Firstly, I will show a joint deterministic and materialistic viewpoint when dealing with freedom. Next I will explain some of the work of Newton and how his specific views of materialism affect freedom. According to determinism, freedom is simply an illusion since everything that happens is determined by previous events and the laws of nature. This includes all human actions, even those of our brain. To clarify, determinism is stating that every event has prior causes that cause the event, and as such then each event is predictable if we knew all preceding events and the laws that govern said events. This makes the future a predetermined thing that cannot be changed or avoided. To back up this claim, materialism is often used in order to demonstrate that all events are caused by previous events and the laws that govern them. Materialism explains that mental activity such as thoughts, decisions, and choices, are events in the brain and that these brain processes are in fact physical processes. This states that even our own decisions are physical and as such are affected by preceding events and the laws of nature. To summarize, all events are determined by previous events and the laws of nature. Additionally, choices and decisions are events of the brain. Therefore, choices and decisions are determined by previous events and the laws of nature. This means that our choices are already made for us and that we have absolutely no freedom. Sir Isaac Newton theorized multiple laws of nature that support the ideas of materialism, ergo supporting determinism and the viewpoint that freedom does not exist. I will explain some of these laws as stated in Newton’s work Principia Mathematica Philosophia Naturalis and how they relate to materialism. In this book, Newton argues that everything moves in accordance with the universal laws of nature. He then goes on to state his ideas as to what some of these laws of nature would be. The first related law is the law of inertia. This law states that all bodies continue moving in a straight line unless acted on by a force, with bodies being anything made of atoms. This states that only certain things are able to affect physical bodies and in a predictable manner. The second related law is the law of universal gravitation, which states that all bodies attract other bodies with force proportional to their mass and distance from one another. By combining these two laws, we can determine that all things are predictable. By knowing all of the properties of a body and the properties of all other related bodies of a past event, we can then determine the properties of said body at a later time. Simply put, all bodies follow a predictable path that can be determined by knowing everything that affects that body and how it will be affected. Since the brain and its processes are physical, then they must be bodies. This means that choices and decisions are bodies and thus can be determined if we know all the related information. This shows that freedom is merely an illusion since our own decisions and choices can be determined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leviathan87 Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 freedom doesn't exist thats all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malyssa Rahl Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 Heres part of a paper that I wrote awhile ago saying freedom doesnt exist. Maybe you might want to chew over this.In this paper, I will prove that freedom does not exist. Firstly, I will show a joint deterministic and materialistic viewpoint when dealing with freedom. Next I will explain some of the work of Newton and how his specific views of materialism affect freedom. According to determinism, freedom is simply an illusion since everything that happens is determined by previous events and the laws of nature. This includes all human actions, even those of our brain. To clarify, determinism is stating that every event has prior causes that cause the event, and as such then each event is predictable if we knew all preceding events and the laws that govern said events. This makes the future a predetermined thing that cannot be changed or avoided. To back up this claim, materialism is often used in order to demonstrate that all events are caused by previous events and the laws that govern them. Materialism explains that mental activity such as thoughts, decisions, and choices, are events in the brain and that these brain processes are in fact physical processes. This states that even our own decisions are physical and as such are affected by preceding events and the laws of nature. To summarize, all events are determined by previous events and the laws of nature. Additionally, choices and decisions are events of the brain. Therefore, choices and decisions are determined by previous events and the laws of nature. This means that our choices are already made for us and that we have absolutely no freedom. Sir Isaac Newton theorized multiple laws of nature that support the ideas of materialism, ergo supporting determinism and the viewpoint that freedom does not exist. I will explain some of these laws as stated in Newton’s work Principia Mathematica Philosophia Naturalis and how they relate to materialism. In this book, Newton argues that everything moves in accordance with the universal laws of nature. He then goes on to state his ideas as to what some of these laws of nature would be. The first related law is the law of inertia. This law states that all bodies continue moving in a straight line unless acted on by a force, with bodies being anything made of atoms. This states that only certain things are able to affect physical bodies and in a predictable manner. The second related law is the law of universal gravitation, which states that all bodies attract other bodies with force proportional to their mass and distance from one another. By combining these two laws, we can determine that all things are predictable. By knowing all of the properties of a body and the properties of all other related bodies of a past event, we can then determine the properties of said body at a later time. Simply put, all bodies follow a predictable path that can be determined by knowing everything that affects that body and how it will be affected. Since the brain and its processes are physical, then they must be bodies. This means that choices and decisions are bodies and thus can be determined if we know all the related information. This shows that freedom is merely an illusion since our own decisions and choices can be determined.The laws of physics have nothing to do with what we choose to do. Our past experiences do influence what we do, but we can choose to do things that wouldn't be expected based on what we've chosen before. And if we are free to choose, then we have freedom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmingllama Posted November 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 The laws of physics have nothing to do with what we choose to do. Our past experiences do influence what we do, but we can choose to do things that wouldn't be expected based on what we've chosen before. And if we are free to choose, then we have freedom.But doesnt those past experiences make you choose to do what wouldnt be expected? And for the laws of physics, its stated that we are assuming that the processes of the brain(your thoughts) are physical, therefore affected by physics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malyssa Rahl Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 If past experiences determined future choices, then they would make you do what you expected, not what you didn't expect. If you're afraid of dogs, the expected response when one comes up to you is to cringe away, or find some other way to avoid it. Yet some are able to choose to confront their fear and pet the dog. Some end up getting bitten, but on average, it doesn't stop them from trying again. Others it does stop them. It's a choice to face a fear, or deal with it. Thus, freedom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmingllama Posted November 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 If past experiences determined future choices, then they would make you do what you expected, not what you didn't expect. If you're afraid of dogs, the expected response when one comes up to you is to cringe away, or find some other way to avoid it. Yet some are able to choose to confront their fear and pet the dog. Some end up getting bitten, but on average, it doesn't stop them from trying again. Others it does stop them. It's a choice to face a fear, or deal with it. Thus, freedom.But everyones past experiences would dictate it. Maybe said dog would be nice that day since he was given treats. Maybe that person was pressured earlier by friends into conquering said fear. Its not just what you want that shapes you, its everything. So we may be unable to understand the universal algorthim that runs our lives, but it can still run our lives. Sadly, we can never know for sure one way or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrumRoll Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 nope, we still have to eat, drink, sleep and shit. We can never be free whilst in a corporeal state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaNzCo Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 We could definitely find a way to not do anything. Sure we aren't free enough to make all of our wildest desires to come true (I'd really like to marry Juno Temple but that's not happening) but if we are given an option, we are always free to turn it down. If you don't want to eat then starve, if you don't want to breath then drown, if you don't want to shit... disembowel yourself... or maybe find a big cork. Its kind of a negative approach, but the only other freedom we have, is to try. You may not make it to the moon, but I won't stop you from jumping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrumRoll Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 no, because you are still bound to the consequences. You will starve and die etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaNzCo Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 My point was that you are free to except the consequences if you do, well, anything. Though we are not gods, therefore we cannot break the laws of physics, and reality, we can live however we want in our means. There are certain levels of freedom obviously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrumRoll Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 similar to how there are different levels of equality:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyguysteve Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 People all are born free but other people take leverage over others, its twisted and many people know this is apart of freedom.We possess individual freedom, to think and act; while we live in world surrounded by this concept. Our actions then do not only effect us as an individual but the world around us also. Freedom brings about such chaos and disorder; we know this from history, true or false people who are free to choose to lie and kill are terrible actions, then people came together and wanted this chaos of freedom to end; with the notion that nothing would change, except its "the few vs the many" and the few were silenced, this is also do to freedom; freedom of those who chose to end chaos with so called 'order' and instill fear into people who then disrupted that order. and the few have the freedom to follow this order, but also as history shows us that they have fought this order. Even today people fear this order and we question freedom when in actuality this is an example about the chaos of freedom.Freedom is real, but is not always a good thing its "perfect chaos" the only perfect thing to exist.Freedom also follows the complexity of the phrase "be careful of what you wish for" you have the freedom to preform any action you please, but not always in the way you think.Einstein refers to insanity being the action of a person who preforms the same experiment numerous times and expecting different results, this is what freedom is, insanity, we will preform a desired action as many times as we desire until we chose not or we are unable to and some how get different results.It also includes the phrase "if I can do it, you can do it" obviously you have the freedom to attempt any actions another can do, you may or may not succeed or even surpass them, but in comparison someone who lives to be 100 doesn't mean you can, though you are free to try.People label freedom as an illusion when thought of parallel to "Laws" which insist people not break or will suffer consequences there by instilling more fear, and then draping the illusion over chaos which is freedom. since laws have not been existent as long as freedom then it is fair to roll it out of the discussion, bringing up the question of how long has the idea of freedom been around?Then the discussion or argument falls into freedom vs leverage, people are always free to choose but when another person takes advantage over someone's fear, is it that persons freedom to fear that enables another to control said person?Freedom governed by laws of nature or physics is a bit different but freedom non the less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaNzCo Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 I think that is pretty much exactly what I had been saying, but it is very eloquently put. The addition is your section on government. Honestly, I think that this is just another form of freedom. We are free to listen to our leaders, our lawmakers, and our superiors... but we are also free to disobey them. You can usually leave for a place that is under a different government, or go to a place where the governments rules rarely apply. I personally hate police and the people who uphold the law, but if they all suddenly disappeared. Riots, murder, rape, and all sorts of other horrible things would happen because of it. Is that what people really want? Is that humanities god given freedom at work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyguysteve Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 I think that is pretty much exactly what I had been saying, but it is very eloquently put. The addition is your section on government. Honestly, I think that this is just another form of freedom. We are free to listen to our leaders, our lawmakers, and our superiors... but we are also free to disobey them. You can usually leave for a place that is under a different government, or go to a place where the governments rules rarely apply. I personally hate police and the people who uphold the law, but if they all suddenly disappeared. Riots, murder, rape, and all sorts of other horrible things would happen because of it. Is that what people really want? Is that humanities god given freedom at work?hm... yes... Freedom became a goal for people who didn't feel they had freedom. When comparing their lives to others.My post was unfortunately long winded but the jist of the argument people seem to focus on is that being free doesn't guarantee success, and this is one of many unchangeable truths.Including God would be redundant and change the direction of the discussion or argument or whatever this debate is.If someone were to go deeper into this understanding then it would reveal of course God is vengeful and picks favorites; Even though god represents all that is good and fair. Freedom, free will, even time, is the illusion of god though I'm referring to the Bible, For every considerable good thing in your life that happens you thank god, for every bad thing you appease god. To sum it up God is not always good.But I'm to amateur to carry this debate with someone who probably is a believer in the bible, and all this time I'm typing is just another example of freedom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrumRoll Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 you people are looking too far into this. We are what we are. Freedom is a fallacy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
†Mute point Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 You aren't looking far enough into it. We are what we are. We are sentient human beings, we are FREE to make our own choices. We, unlike any other animal, are capable of ignoring our instinctual urges, and doing what we want to do, not just what our instincts say to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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