[Ruling] Yu-Gi-Oh! - 2 Trap Holes VS. Shooting Star Dragon

[Nero D. Ace]

Negate the activation of an effect that would destroy a card(s) on the field, and destroy that card.

[Shadow_Hyren]

The only way Trap Hole works on Shooting Star Dragon would be if it were flipped face-down (like with Book of Moon) then flipped face up again as Trap hole only works on Normal Flip Summons, Shooting Star Dragon has to be Synchro Summoned (a special summon). I'm sorry, I didn't want that to sound condescending so basically the first Trap Hole could theoretically be activated but only under a specific circumstance. However getting back to your question: The second Trap Hole cannot be activated because its effect reads "When your opponent Normal Summons or Flip Summons 1 Monster..." The effect has to activated immediately when the Monster is summoned so the timing is missed. This is because the first Trap Hole is activated in response to Shooting Star Dragon (in your hypothetical situation) being Flip Summoned. Trap Hole becomes Chain Link 1. Shooting Star Dragon's effect to negate and Destroy a card that attempts to destroy it (a Quick or formerly Multi-Trigger effect incidentally) becomes Chain Link 2. Although Trap Hole Technically is a Spell Speed 2 the second misses the timing because the last thing that happened was Shooting Star Dragon's 2nd effect activating. Sorry for the long answer but the short of it is that no, the above scenario cannot (legally) happen; although, it isn't actually the Spell Speed rule that prevents this from occuring. It is actually the Missed Timing rule. Hope this was helpful. If you have any other questions, I'd be happy to help; I've been playing Yu-Gi-Oh! since it was released in the USA.

[Koby]

The only way Trap Hole works on Shooting Star Dragon would be if it were flipped face-down (like with Book of Moon) then flipped face up again as Trap hole only works on Normal Flip Summons, Shooting Star Dragon has to be Synchro Summoned (a special summon). I'm sorry, I didn't want that to sound condescending so basically the first Trap Hole could theoretically be activated but only under a specific circumstance. However getting back to your question: The second Trap Hole cannot be activated because its effect reads "When your opponent Normal Summons or Flip Summons 1 Monster..." The effect has to activated immediately when the Monster is summoned so the timing is missed. This is because the first Trap Hole is activated in response to Shooting Star Dragon (in your hypothetical situation) being Flip Summoned. Trap Hole becomes Chain Link 1. Shooting Star Dragon's effect to negate and Destroy a card that attempts to destroy it (a Quick or formerly Multi-Trigger effect incidentally) becomes Chain Link 2. Although Trap Hole Technically is a Spell Speed 2 the second misses the timing because the last thing that happened was Shooting Star Dragon's 2nd effect activating. Sorry for the long answer but the short of it is that no, the above scenario cannot (legally) happen; although, it isn't actually the Spell Speed rule that prevents this from occuring. It is actually the Missed Timing rule. Hope this was helpful. If you have any other questions, I'd be happy to help; I've been playing Yu-Gi-Oh! since it was released in the USA.

What Shadow_Hyren says is correct.

If you want a trap that would work on Special Summons then I'd suggest Bottomless Trap Hole, however using two would not work either. The way it would work would be to use Bottomless Trap Hole, then when he activates his effect, use Divine Wrath to destroy him. In essence you'll need two cards that can destroy him and still be correctly timed to actually take him down.

[Xitrons]

Actually.....

Shadow_Hyren and Koby are both incorrect.

When a monster is summoned, it doesn't go onto a chain. So you're not chaining to the summon per se. That being said it is still possible to activate cards when a monster is summoned, this is done with a special chain. It's very similar to declaring an attack. You only get one chance to respond to this event.

So let's say you summon Shooting Star Dragon. We now get a special chain to responded to Shooting Star Dragon's summon.

Chain Link 1: I activate Bottomless Trap Hole.

Chain Link 2: You activate Shooting Star Dragon's effect to try to negate Bottomless Trap Hole

Now....here's why both those gentlemen were wrong.

Chain Link 3: I activate Torrential Tribute.

I can do this because this is that special chain I was talking about and I'm still responding to your Shooting Star Dragon's summon.

[Koby]

Actually.....

Shadow_Hyren and Koby are both incorrect.

When a monster is summoned, it doesn't go onto a chain. So you're not chaining to the summon per se. That being said it is still possible to activate cards when a monster is summoned, this is done with a special chain. It's very similar to declaring an attack. You only get one chance to respond to this event.

So let's say you summon Shooting Star Dragon. We now get a special chain to responded to Shooting Star Dragon's summon.

Chain Link 1: I activate Bottomless Trap Hole.

Chain Link 2: You activate Shooting Star Dragon's effect to try to negate Bottomless Trap Hole

Now....here's why both those gentlemen were wrong.

Chain Link 3: I activate Torrential Tribute.

I can do this because this is that special chain I was talking about and I'm still responding to your Shooting Star Dragon's summon.

I fail to see how I was incorrect considering you didn't say anything that would actually make anything I said incorrect.

Also, Chain Link 3 would have to be something to counter Stardust eff. Using Torrential Tribute in that chain isn't possible and therefore you'd be the one wrong. Torrential Tribute missed it's timing when Bottomless was activated in it's place.

[Xitrons]

The last thing to have RESOLVED is the monster's successful summon.

This Chain is legal. This Chain was activated in response to a successful Summon, so the timing is still correct.

http://iowagamers.the-up.com/t398-chaining-bottomless-trap-hole-torrential-tribute

Gaze upon this.

Merged Posts, Stop Double Posting. Use the Edit Button.

[Koby]

The last thing to have RESOLVED is the monster's successful summon.

This Chain is legal. This Chain was activated in response to a successful Summon, so the timing is still correct.

Wrong again. The last thing to have resolved was his effect, which was only activated after he was successfully summoned.

*edit* Nice spam/double posting

http://iowagamers.the-up.com/t398-chaining-bottomless-trap-hole-torrential-tribute

Gaze upon this.

That's a total different thing. TT is chained to Bottomless in that page you linked to while what you're trying to do is activate TT after Stardust eff has resolved (the fact his eff has resolved places TT at an incorrect timing because you're passed the point of the SS being the last thing to have been resolved). However you're trying to start a new chain after Stardust eff has resolved. Again you missed your timing.

[Xitrons]

The chain hasn't resolved yet. That's why that word RESOLVE was in all caps. It's important.

There's a huge difference between effects activating and resolving. Effects resolve when the chain is complete and now we work our way backwards.

Chain Link 1: Activate Bottomless Trap Hole

Chain Link 2: Activate Shooting Star Dragon

Chain Link 3: Activate Torrential Tribute

At this point nothing as resolved yet. The last thing to successfully resolve is the monster being summoned.

Now it's time for our chain to resolve, backwards of course.

Chain Link 3: Torrential Tribute resolves and destroys all monsters on the field

Chain Link 2: Shooting Star Dragon's effect resolves and negates Bottomless Trap Hole (even though there's no real reason to do so anymore)

Chain Link 1: Bottomless Trap Hole was negated and destroyed. It is sent to the Graveyard.

At this point the chain is completed and Torrential Tribute is then sent to the Graveyard.

As for missing the timing in these circumstances, you would miss the timing if the last thing to resolve was not the monster being summoned.

For example, I have a face-down Call of the Haunted and a Mirror Force and Dark Magician in my graveyard. You have a face-down Mystical Space Typhoon and a Bottomless Trap Hole.

You activate Mystical Space Typhoon and target my Mirror Force.

Chain Link 1: Mystical Space Typhoon

I (for some reason) activate Call of the Haunted and target my Dark Magician.

Chain Link 2: Call of the Haunted

Now the Chain resolves.

Chain Link 2: Call of the Haunted resolves Special summoning Dark Magician.

Chain Link 1: Mystical Space Typhoon resolves and destroys my set Mirror Force. Mirror Force is sent to the Graveyard.

The chain resolves and Mystical Space Typhoon is sent to the Graveyard. At this point you CAN NOT activate Bottomless Trap Hole in response to my Dark Magician's summon because the last thing to resolve was Mystical Space Typhoon. This is pretty good case of when Bottomless Trap Hole and similar cards miss the timing. If you wanted to ou have this situation.

You have 2 Trap Hole and 3 Bottomless Trap Hole on your field.

I have 3 Book of Moon and 2 Torrential Tribute on my field. (I know this setup is illegal due to the ban list, that doesn't matter)

I summon Breaker the Magical Warrior, his effect triggers.

Chain Link 1: Breaker the Magical Warrior

You activate Trap Hole

Chain Link 2: Trap Hole

I don't want my Breaker to be destroyed so I'm going to flip him face-down with Book of Moon

Chain Link 3: Book of Moon

You really want to destroy my Breaker so you play Bottomless Trap Hole

Chain Link 4: Bottomless Trap Hole

I respond with another Book of Moon

Chain Link 5: Book of Moon

You respond with another Trap Hole

Chain Link 6: Trap Hole

I respond with a third Book of Moon

Chain Link 7: Book of Moon

You respond with a second Bottomless Trap Hole

Chain Link 8: Bottomless Trap Hole

I don't want Breaker removed from play so I respond with Torrential Tribute

Chain Link 9: Torrential Tribute

You do want it removed from play so you respond with a third Bottomless Trap Hole

Chain Link 10: Bottomless Trap Hole

Lastly I'll respond with a second Torrential Tribute.

Chain Link 11: Torrential Tribute

That's the end of our chain and now it resolves in reverse

Chain Link 11: Torrential Tribute resolves and destroys all monsters on the field

Chain Link 10: Bottomless Trap Hole resolves without effect

Chain Link 9: Torrential Tribute resolves without effect

Chain Link 8: Bottomless Trap Hole resolves without effect

Chain Link 7: Book of Moon's effect fizzles since the target is no longer there

Chain Link 6: Trap Hole resolves without effect

Chain Link 5: Book of Moon's effect fizzles since the target is no longer there

Chain Link 4: Bottomless Trap Hole resolves without effect

Chain Link 3: Book of Moon's effect fizzles since the target is no longer there

Chain Link 2: Trap Hole resolves without effect

Chain Link 1: Breaker the Magical Warrior's effect resolves without effect since Breaker is no longer on the field

At this point the chain has fully resolved and all involved cards are sent to the Graveyard

WITHOUT THE BAN LIST, this chain is 100% legal even though 7 cards that can only be activated in response to a monster's summon were activated.

Merged Posts, Stop Double Posting. Use the Edit Button.

[Koby]

I admit I was wrong on this. I was under the impression only one could be chained per summon. However in my original post where I stated Hyren was correct, I was talking about the whole Trap Hole part, which cannot be used on him unless as he said, it was flipped up or something, in which why I suggest to use the Bottomless version as it works on Special Summons. As Xitrons pointed out you can chain Bottomless to Shooting Star Dragon's eff negating the first one.