Re: "Damsel in Distress"

[Nero D. Ace]

Ah, I shouldn't do this. Even as I'm typing this, I'm getting this nagging feeling at the back of my mind that I shouldn't re-ignite this really old topic.

 

Now, I've been pretty vocal on the topic of Anita's Kickstarter to make this video series about the various tropes against women in video games. Now before the pitchforks rise, lemme re-affirm - I was vocal against the KICKSTARTER. I got no problem with people talking about their views on YouTube. Hell, I don't agree with half the stuff that AngryJoe says but that doesn't mean I don't like his stuff or respect his opinion.

 

Now that that's out of the way, for the people who don't know what I'm talking about, let me present this video -

 

 

It's a 24 minute video which talks about a very particular trope - The Damsel in Distress.

 

Now I'd actually forgotten about this series until recently, and having been so vocal, I thought I'd go see just what had come out of all the Kickstarter money.

 

Now to understand what I'm gonna talk about next, I really recommend you guys watch the video. It's actually really well presented and thought out. Not a lot of vague examples or anything.

 

Lemme start off by saying that I was very biased indeed when I started. The image of Princess Peach yelling for Mario from a castle, followed by a logo, the title and a montage of "damsels" out of which I only recognized that one chick from the first Crash Bandicoot, that princess from the awful Sonic 2006, and Jenny from Darkness 2. (I'll address this near the end.)

 

Following this is a brief intro in which Anita mentions that even if we are critical of some flaws in a game, we can enjoy them. So that was kinda nice and it told trolls to fuck off and enjoy the game 'cuz some people are gonna be critical of some aspects.

 

Next up is probably the strongest part of the video which made me actually think that the series was gonna go into the more critical analysis of the trope. It mentions a game called "Dinosaur Planet" developed by Rare (from their Nintendo days) which starred a female protagonist that got canned and carried over into Star Fox Adventures for the Game Cube.

 

Now this ... this was a good point. It was a debate-able point on both sides of the party, yes but it was a good point.

 

For example,

For Nintendo's side, it was a matter of getting games out. Their new console had launched just a year ago and they had to get some of their existing franchises out there. Dino Planet had been under development since the N64 days and when they moved it over to the GameCube, they were gonna be competing with stuff like Sly Cooper and Kingdom Hearts, stuff that was "looking" graphically awesome.

Miyamoto saw that the game had anthropomorphic characters, looked at what existing IP's had anthropomorphics and basically transformed the character names and designs. 

In fact, I'll go as far as to say that I'm with her on this one. Star Fox Adventures wasn't even a proper Star Fox game! Lemme fly in a good Star Fox game again, dammit! ... ahem, sorry, that's a different rant.

 

Anyways, after this segment, it gets kind of slow. She goes in to explain the damsel trope in more detail and it's evolution through books to B/W film to TV to film again to games.

 

After this is where I found issue with her opinions.

 

From here on out, I felt that it fell flat on the analyzing part and become more of a rant towards Mario and Zelda. Maybe I was just imagining things but in a 24 minute video, this was almost 12 minutes about how Peach and Zelda are the embodiment of women trapped to be rescued by men and how it was a stereotypical trope against all women everywhere.

 

Again, I'm not gonna lie. There was much eye-rolling through these 12 minutes. 

 

I don't even know where to start ...

For one thing, this just became a huge missed opportunity. I mean, here was a chance to make a properly marketed video about how women in gaming have evolved from damsel in distress to a front-role lead and more than half of it is a rant against Mario and Zelda.

 

I mean, it's just ... Why would you even ... What in the ...

 

Wait, lemme get my head in order. Okay, since we're all anal-yzing stuff here, I'm gonna analyze this "rant", as I'm gonna call it -

 

MARIO

 

Mario is a franchise from the early the 1980's. If you ask anyone living near me, be they a core gamer or someone who hasn't touched a console their entire life, they will know Mario. 100%.

Why?

Because he has never been retcon-ed. Ever.

Apart from the graphical enhancements, the Mario from Super Mario Bros. NES is the same as the Mario from New Super Mario Bros. U.

The reason for this is twofold:

 

i) Nintendo doesn't want to alienate it's fans by drastically changing the one character that's basically built their community. Doing so could cause a huge backlash and make their mascot less like-able by the existing community while not getting in that many fans from the next one. (History: Sonic 2006)

 

ii) Mario has always been about one thing - jumping. When I was 10 years old and I started the game, I didn't know there was any princess, I didn't know there was any Bowser, I didn't know I was playing a plumber. I didn't get the manual, I didn't care. All I knew was "A" to jump, "B" to fireball, D-Pad to move. It was a game about dexterity where me and my friends would challenge each other to see who got further.

This has not largely changed since then. Kids still play Mario to jump, not for the story.

 

My point - Mario is a terrible example for this video. It is a trope that exists not because it wants to, but because it HAS to.

 

But while we're on that, lemme bring up two Mario games in which Peach does play an active role at key points in the game, which people may not consider as part of the main franchise, but they're the closest "story-games" you're gonna get. These games are -

• Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars.
  
• Paper Mario.
  

 

Granted the Damsel trope is still there to an extent, but it's almost a parody of the Mario setting that it's hard not to laugh and go along with it.

 

 

ZELDA

 

Note that I wrote Zelda and not Link. That's because you can change your name. And pretend like YOU are in the game where everyone gives you stuff, and treats you like a hero and you get to beat the bad-est bad guy in the world.

 

Yes, there have been times when people may have thought - "Would've been cool if Link were a girl and Zelda a boy." and I have seen enough fan-art of it to scar me for life, but this has always been Miyamoto's baby and Miaymoto based the design off experiences he had as a kid. I'm pretty sure he hasn't experienced being a girl yet so maybe we can hold off the female Link idea till the next generation.

 

Even on this franchise, I was just begging her to go back to what she was doing earlier and explaining why Zelda always ends up being a damsel. Instead, I got highlights of her being the most useful when she wasn't in her true form.

 

And the saddest part is that this is again a franchise in which the best part of the game was the gameplay. Exploring the dungeons, making the path to the next dungeon. Utilizing the tools that you were given.

Maybe it's because I played it when I was too old for it but seeing this video, I'm starting to think if I perhaps took the wrong things away from my moments with Ocarina of Time.

 

I mean, yeah - the story's cool and all. But ... if I want story, I'll play KOTOR, or The Walking Dead, or Dark Souls (ironic, isn't it?).

 

Anyways, even my point on this is debate-able so I'll let it slide though I'm not convinced.

 

-------------------------------------

 

Now that that's over, back to the rest of it.

She mentions that a lot of old franchises are getting renewed by publishers as an attempt to cash in on gaming nostalgia.

 

That is absolutely correct. I agree completely! See, we're seeing eye to eye again! 

 

That's exactly why Amy Rose was made play-able, the damsels from Karateka and Prince of Persia were left damsels, the Dragon's Lair chick is sluttier, and Double Dragon features that same "punch-to-the-gut" kidnappin ...

 

wait! wait! wait! What the hell, yo?

I thought we were seeing eye to eye here. Why is she mentioning the most "completely adapted" renewals in modern date!?

 

Again, this is my opinion, but -

I never liked playing as Amy, or Knuckles, or Shadow, or Silver or anyone. I played a Sonic game for Sonic.

I never finished Karateka or the classic Prince of Persia. Nor have I touched the new ones since the new Karateka got critically panned and nothing will ever top PoP: Warrior Within.

I have never even HEARD of Dragon's Lair despite it's multiple re-released; and last but not least -

 

Double Dragon.

Ah, the shit that this game has gone through. I played the first DDII on the NES, with my brother for two reasons -

1) It's a beat-em-up.

2) Beat em up's are fun when played together.

That's it. And the only reason that Double Dragon Neon exists is that suddenly beat-em-ups are getting kind of popular again after Castle Crashers, Scott Pilgrim vs. the World and a few japanese titles like Moon Diver.

Neon is a classic attempt to cash in on the success of other games with nostalgia. Regardless of how the game plays, it's a port. Why would they put time into adding a female warrior mode when they're only catering to fans who're drooling for an HD version of a game they used to play as kids?

 

Sigh.

It might seem like I'm nit-picking here but this was a chance.

 

This was a chance to talk not only about titles like Tomb Raider, Mighty Jill Off, Remember Me, Final Fantasy XIII (ugh) and other titles starring female leads, but this was a chance to talk about how games are over coming that damsel trope and how games actually are telling TRUE love stories in which the hero and the heroine are both playing an active part through out the game.

What's that? They don't exist?

 

ICO

Prince of Persia (2008) {This one is right here! Why dig up the very first one!?}

One and One Story (You guys can actually play this one easily)

 

Huff.

That's it. I'm tired. I'm done.

 

My condensed opinion on the video? It started off good, informative and likely to show information about the trope and it's evolution.

what it turned out to be - girls are shown as bitches in games and guys suck for making us look like that.

 

I truly, truly apologize if that isn't what it's intended to be but as I saw it, that my interpretation.

 

That said, I'm looking forward to the rest of the videos and I hope that as the series progresses, it'll get more evolutionary about the current status of females in games.

 

Ah, fuck it.

Have your flame wars and your feminist debates, Imma go play Mario with my niece.

[† poetictragedy]

I agree with a lot of this video actually. It's a shame that women are most often damsels. 

 

However, you have to take into consideration that the video game industry is primarily targeted toward males. So of course most protagonists are going to be male and there will be damsels to save.

 

She did make a good point that the damsel trope is not only prevalent in video games, but in all media. So this is not only an issue in video games, but in movies, comics, books, etc.

 

Now I love Zelda. It's my favorite franchise. Yes, the damsel in distress plot gets a little boring after a while, but that won't stop me from playing the games.

 

It's always refreshing when a female character is the protagonist of the story. Portal is another one of my favorite series. I think the hero being a female character makes me like it even more. It would be nice to have more games with female protagonists, but like I said, the industry is so targeted toward males, it doesn't happen often.

 

I'm not a very aggressive feminist. I just kind of shrug and say, "That's life." But I think raising awareness is a good starting point to changing society's views on women.

Edited June 15, 2013 by poetictragedy

[† Emotional Outlet]

I think she focussed a lot on Peach and Zelda because they are popular, they are well-known, and they have been around for a while. She likely wanted to point out that, in the years these two characters have existed, their roles have primarily been that of an object Mario and Link need to rescue. And, as Anita pointed out, while they are given some time to shine, ultimately they go back into their normal roles.

 

I mean, there are people who think it just wouldn't be a Mario or Zelda game unless there's a damsel to be rescued. That's just the way it's always been, right? Why change it? It ain't broke, so don't fix it!

 

That's the kind of attitude I believe Anita wants to challenge. She's not saying the games are bad or sexist--she wants people to consider why they think that way, why there has to be a damsel to rescue in order to make a game worth playing. It's not like there's a lot of popular or well-known games where you play as a woman who needs to rescue her boyfriend or husband.

 

In the second video, she runs through a handful of games (likely in an effort to show how prevalent the trope is, at the cost of deeper analysis) that have the same basic plot: your wife is murdered and you have to rescue your kidnapped daughter. (Outlaws, Kane & Lynch, Prototype 2, Inversion, Asura's Wrath, Dishonored)

 

I don't really understand how you came up with "girls are shown as bitches in games".

 

It wasn't about how difficult and cruel video game women are; it's about how women are disenfranchised and shown as powerless in video games.

 

It wasn't about telling guys they suck because they make video games with these tropes; it's about getting people to examine these thought processes.

 

It's about asking why it's so easy and normal for us to imagine a woman in distress but a man in a similar position is rare and often played for laughs. Why is it so "revolutionary" and "edgy" to have a female hero save the world? Having female leads should just be a reality, not a noteworthy thing people are congratulated for.

 

There's an article here from Penny Arcade about how games with female heroes tend not to sell well for a number of reasons--including the fact they're given less funding.

 

"If you’re funding a large-budget game and you see these numbers, you see that you lose sales by adding the capability to choose a female hero, and you lose significant sales by releasing a game with a female hero."

 

"Games with only female heroes are given half the marketing budget as games with male heroes."

 

Consider that the ESA says about 45% of gamers are women. Continuing to pretend that women gamers are part of some niche market that can be sated with dress up and cooking games is bordering on head-in-sand behaviour. That's why it's important to challenge these beliefs and tropes.

[shadowtheman]

I agree this trope is as old as the hills, and done to much.  I can see it working one in a while but when its seems to be all over it gets boring.  The damsel in distress theory is a lot of like the Smurfette principal.  http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/team-nchick/nostalgia-chick/16616-the-smurfette-principle

 

Just another reason why modern day anime is getting better.  In recent years in anime strives have been made to escape these old tropes.  Ones that brake the idea that the female protagonist must at some point become week for her male counter part to get the excuse to save her.  I wonder if they have an episode about anime.    

 

I can imagine as any one social group develops and both sexes gain equal footing these kind of ideas become things of the past.  I could go into greater detail but I won't until this thread is more fleshed out.  This can be a vary sensitive subject after all, one that deserves respect.  

[† Emotional Outlet]

Definitely old as hell. One of the philosophies at TV Tropes is that Tropes Are Tools--they aren't inherently bad or good. It's when they're done to death (and Damsel In Distress has been done to death) that they become cliches and are no longer simply storytelling tools, but warning signs that the work may be lazily or sloppily written.

 

Anyway, the comments on the Smurfette video you linked are interesting, and it's definitely something I've seen a lot.

 

"Well, Sailor Moon exists! Cardcaptor Sakura! Powerpuff Girls!" Like somehow we're supposed to be satisfied because it was done a few times with some degree of success, so there's no need to do it again.

 

They don't say, "We already have a game with a white dude lead. Let's do something else." "What are you complaining about, you already have a game where the lead is grizzled middle-aged dude with stubble." No, they just keep doing it.

 

When people dream about having female leads, about having a superhero team of POC, or even more radically--a team of female POC--somehow all of that is threatening because the status quo is being challenged.

 

"Games are marketed toward boys!"

"That's just the way it's always been!"

"Games with female leads don't sell!"

"It's unrealistic!"

"You can't just force in minorities!"

"You already have Tomb Raider and Portal!"

"That's not historically accurate!"

 

(The bit about introducing more women, POC, and queer characters being "unrealistic" always bothers me--a lot of, if not most, people I know are non-white and queer, and at least half of them are female. I guess I'm just living in a fantasy land.)

 

I mean, how much of that is a self-fulfilling prophecy? If you don't fund or advertise it, of course it's going to fail. If you write terrible characters no one can relate to, of course it's going to fail.

 

How much of that is just excuses? Like, the historical accuracy thing, while understandably a point of contention, seems to forget that some people like to consume media to get away from real life, so "realism" in that sense isn't a huge factor. People have different tastes--why shouldn't they try to capitalise on that fact instead of assuming everyone is happy with the status quo?

 

Why shouldn't we challenge the idea that "video games are for men" or that "comics are for boys"? Why shouldn't we challenge people who think that comics and games about women won't sell just because the leads are women?

[shadowtheman]

Your preaching to the quire.  As things change the more people will ask why.  I can imagine with any consecutive generation theirs always a percentage of people who will see things  differently and will change the status quo.  In other places it can be vary different as well.  I know in Japan most items are advertised as though they are always selling to girls while in the states it's boys.  In some African tribes the women are the leaders and hunters while the males are the care takers. 

 

Many ideas like this are a cultural thing.  They can change drastically for many reasons.  A person moves the masses, the masses change appeal, a dramatic happening forces change and more.  Yes questioning things along with others is a great way to bring social change over time.  Yet that's the thing "over time" is the main point.  One would have to be patient, but slowly but surly things will change.  Just look at media today versus 50 years ago.  Yes there were missteps and goof ups but things are still moving forward.  And unless your Mr. King and can move the masses that's all you can ask for. 

[Nero D. Ace]

I'm back! Sorry I wasn't around to reply earlier.

 

Okay, part of me is already kicking myself in the ass for starting this topic out of sheer frustration ... but sharing is good, and the last time I kept stuff inside like an emo shit, I passed right through middle and high school as the creepy guy who sits in the corner.

 

I just wanna clear some things up first -

 

1) I'm not against spreading awareness. I actually like playing some games from a female protagonist's POV. Tomb Raider, Beyond Good and Evil, Portal, DreamFall - I love 'em all. They shall far outshine all the Kane and Lynch's and Call of Duties when I am old and dead.

 

2) I agreed with most of her ideas ... in this video. Afterwards, I went to the channel, checked out the rest of the upload collection and found that they were all a bit - opinionated?

As in, the "Reasons for hating Twilight" and "Hunger Games" one. They were really really biased, okay? I see fan reviews and let's plays and all the youtube celebrities a lot so I can tell when a person is stating facts or just spewing their own opinion. 

And I just don't share the same opinion as her on the matters I don't agree with her. Kay?

 

3) I'm a game designer-in training. I found out 2 years ago that making games was all I wanted to do, not a boring desk job stamping stuff for the right price. So when I look at games NOW, I look at it objectively trying to find out what the devs were thinking when they made it. What pressures they were under when they had to publish it.

So when I see a good company get attacked for a reason I think seems unfair, I feel a natural tendency to defend that company. This point may be the strongest for getting me riled up.

 

Okay, now that that's clear;

 

I realize it may not be the nice thing to do to over-sexualize a woman as an object but given the circumstances, it may have been the right thing to do. 

Sales numbers were different back in the day and the competition was pretty tough. If you didn't meet the status quo, there was a chance you could get shut down.

 

Now, the scene has changed somewhat today with the burst of the indie market and the options for a team of 9-10 people to make a damn good game any way they see fit. And this of course has led to a radical change. Braid and Super Meat Boy were the first to do this but while Super Meat Boy did it as an ode to old platformers, Braid did it as a "twist" on the formula - what if you were the stalker and she were the one fleeing away from you?

 

At this point, the AAA industry is still just interested in the money because hey, it's still a business at the end. Now, the indies have the great ideas and the AAA's have the money to provide the production quality.

Braid and SMB were good but there've been dozens of indie titles released and most of them haven't really shone out that much to me.

A lot of indie titles however, have been starring female protagonists - Giana Twisted Dreams, Recettear, Bleed, and I can actually remember key moments from those games!

 

So where is the problem? Why aren't these female protagonists getting the same kind of love in the AAA industry?

Again, money. Here's a list of recent games I've played starring female protagonists -

 

FF-13-2, Remember Me, AC: Liberations - All these games are okay but to me, it really didn't matter that I was playing a girl. It wouldn't have made any difference AT ALL if the devs had made them male.

(For FF 13-2, I would've preferred it after listening to that voice actress for 30 minutes >.<)

 

On the other hand, I can't imagine the dynamic between Glados and Chell playing out nearly as well as it did if she had been a dude.

 

Glados: You're fat.

Male Chell: Cool, time to get some proteins and hit the gym.

 

^ Just doesn't work.

 

Female leads is a hard formula to get right, for some reason and I can't put my finger on it. Even when I'm designing something, I just can't make a story with a female lead.

 

My reason is cuz I'm shit scared. Look at all these vultures looking for material about how females are inaccurately portrayed in media. If I write it too controversial, I'll piss off the people who were planning on buying it but aren't interested anymore. If I write it too stereo-typical, I'll be subject of ridicule in their videos and blogs. Better to just focus on a male character ...

 

I'm not the best game designer in the world. I'm not even remotely good yet. I'm still learning the ropes and stumbling. But when I get into the industry, IF I get in, I wanna make a good game. That's all.

I praise the guys and gals who have the courage to make games like Dreamfall, Portal and explore some new ground.

 

I praise them because they do what I can't.

 

P.S. I don't know if there's any way to contact her considering all the Youtube videos have comments disabled, but does anyone know her views on Bayonetta?

[† Emotional Outlet]

From what I understand, Feminist Frequency is just Anita (I could be very wrong, but that is the impression I have), so her videos are representative of her opinions as an individual rather than a representation of a group. I don't agree with everything she says either, but I don't really see a problem with her expressing her opinions. It's okay to disagree! ouo

 

Anita made a video about Bayonetta's advertising in Japanese subways about three years ago. There's a bit in the start about how she feels about the game in general before getting into the ad and harassment in Japan.

 

"I realize it may not be the nice thing to do to over-sexualize a woman as an object but given the circumstances, it may have been the right thing to do."

 

Do you mean it was the right thing to do financially? Because that's the only reason I can think of to say it's "right" to objectify a woman, and even that doesn't sit well with me.

 

I did mention earlier that games with female protags tend to be given a smaller advertising budget because they don't sell as well as games with male protags. I then asked whether this was a self-fulfilling prophecy--obviously if you don't advertise a game, no one knows it exists and thus won't purchase it.

 

When people say they have issues writing women or female identified characters, I wonder how much of that is due to how society tells us to view women.

 

In shadow's linked video, she touches on the concept that "gender neutral" entertainment often stars male characters and as such, we're taught that everyone can relate to male characters, but only women can relate to female characters. We're taught that the default is a white man--even the Simpsons jokes about it.

 

I'm not a gay man, but I can write one without being super offensive about it. I've never been a male teenaged bully, but I feel okay about being able to write one sympathetically. I'm almost certainly cis, but I'm not afraid to write genderqueer characters.

 

I'm not afraid because I'm willing to learn, and I think people would most certainly be willing to forgive clumsy executions as long as there are honest and sincere attempts at learning and listening.

 

Like I'll never know what it's like to be trans*, so I just sit down and I listen, rather than try to force my cis mindset on them. I don't experience the world the way they do, that's just the reality of it. They know their world better than I do.

 

I'm a queer (vaguely) white-passing WOC--I might be taking things for granted because that is my personal identity, but I don't see why people say that having queer WOC characters is "tokenism" or even outrageous. Everywhere I look on Tumblr it seems like everyone is a queer POC--yet the representation of POC characters, much less queer ones, is disappointing and disheartening.

 

Every day I learn that any weird habits I may have, I share with thousands of other people. Every day the Internet reminds me that no matter how alone I think I am, there are thousands of people who have been exactly where I have been. My individual experiences are not unique.

 

Yet I'm treated like a minority, like I'm a fringe group. And I'm not! I'm not fringe in any sense of the word! Women are everywhere! POC are everywhere! Queer people are everywhere! Yet so many of our stories are about cishet white males.

 

Maybe that's why people are afraid to write outside of that default male protag. Because they don't know--no one has told them anything otherwise. To change that, we have to be willing to change and be willing to listen--listen to understand, not listen to respond.

[Nero D. Ace]

Hmm, okay, I think I get that self-fulfilling prophecy thing about not advertising a game enough, and as a result, it failing to generate an interest when it comes out.

 

I did some research for a paper a while back and I found out that when Ubisoft's Beyond Good and Evil came out, even though they had advertised it quite a bit, the fact that it released almost simultaneously with Splinter Cell and Prince of Persia, 2 more of Ubisoft's franchise, it may have resulted in a somewhat commercial failure. It may have more to do with the fact that SC and PoP were existing IP's while BG&E was a new one but in the end, all people saw was this -

 

"Good expensive game starring female lead bombs."

It was getting rave reviews everywhere but not enough people were buying it.

 

It's the same reason why I'm beginning to think that the XBone still isn't out of the race yet. People are voting everywhere - PS4 with 80% and XBone with 20% on an average.

But in the end, it's gonna come down to the money, which property will generate more money?

 

It's a sad thing, really. People who want to make good games and can make good games aren't allowed to because it's too much of a risk and it's much safer to invest in a generic shooter/hack-and-slash/open world/sports title.

 

And hey, it's not like I'm never gonna design a game around female characters. Just that - it won't really be like that in my early attempts. Games are hard enough to get right just making them fun again, let alone worry about character designs.

 

Also, I just remembered something - Ms. Pac Man. Does that count? lol

[† Emotional Outlet]

It happens in movies too. If a movie bombs with a male lead, it's because the movie just sucked. If a movie bombs with a female lead, it's because no one wants to watch movies with female leads ("chick flicks" as it were). As Joss Whedon says (in reference to why there's a lack of superheroine movies), "Toymakers will tell you they won’t sell enough, and movie people will point to the two terrible superheroine movies that were made and say, You see? It can’t be done."

 

There was an interesting bit in the PA article about reviews.

 

"Games that allow you to choose your gender are reviewed better than games that offer male-only heroes, but the games with male only heroes sold better."

 

So while people apparently like the games, the sales aren't reflecting that to the publishers which means they think those types of games aren't worth as much as games with male protags. If you want sweet reviews, letting people choose the sex of their protag will likely land you better reviews than just a male protag, but since most are likely more concerned with staying in the black, then a male protag is the way to go.

 

I don't have a lot of feelings about Ms. Pac Man. She's basically a female version of Pac Man, made apparent through the use of make up and a bow. There's an article from 2009 here about her, and an interesting comment that seems pretty relevant even today, especially with some of the backlash Anita experienced when she pointed out a lack of new games with female leads.

 

"... one psychologist suggested that one of the major reasons for Ms. Pac-Man’s appeal was that one of the reasons that female gamers were not attracted to video games is that they often need to be given “permission” to play with the boys."

 

Legit, I hear a lot of people say, "girls don't belong in video games" and "girls aren't gamers". Just as people insist that comics are a boys club, they still say games are a boys club too.

 

Anyway, I think the nice thing about the Internet is you can make it pretty big without the help of a AAA company. You need to do a lot of work to get your name out there and develop a respectable product, but it's certainly doable to make something that breaks the mould and still be a success. Although it's a boon for PC gaming, I don't know what all is being done for console gaming.

 

There is stuff like the OUYA and GameStick which are supposed to be friendly to indie developers, but I know they aren't especially attractive options to consumers who may not be comfortable with such risks. Early yet to make any judgment calls.

 

Either way, I'm still optimistic; waves are being made. ouo

[shadowtheman]

It happens in movies too. If a movie bombs with a male lead, it's because the movie just sucked. If a movie bombs with a female lead, it's because no one wants to watch movies with female leads ("chick flicks" as it were). As Joss Whedon says (in reference to why there's a lack of superheroine movies), "Toymakers will tell you they won’t sell enough, and movie people will point to the two terrible superheroine movies that were made and say, You see? It can’t be done."

 

I tend to watch a lot of movies, being that its one one my hobbies.  "Chick flicks" tend to fall into a genre rather than any movie with a female lead.  How ever you definitely have a point.  Especially in western countries were male commercialize is ahead.   I think it comes down to what people are taught when there young.   Boys are told to play with GI joes while girls are told to play with Barbeys.  Seance the market is predominantly focus on male buyers toy makers are less likely to make toys that appear to them "girly".  Like female super heroes. 

 

http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/teamt/leon-thomas/renegade-cut/39605-renegade-cut-superheroes-and-orson-welles

 

In this vid its discussed at one point how super hero movies at one time weren't taken seriously and there for weren't given the budget or directorial professionalism they needed to succeed.  It could be easily said for female heroine movies.  As said they are not good vehicles for boys toys. 

 

 

"... one psychologist suggested that one of the major reasons for Ms. Pac-Man’s appeal was that one of the reasons that female gamers were not attracted to video games is that they often need to be given “permission” to play with the boys."

 

Legit, I hear a lot of people say, "girls don't belong in video games" and "girls aren't gamers". Just as people insist that comics are a boys club, they still say games are a boys club too.

 

 

I hate this kind of biased bunk.  The only reason why this stigma was created in my opinion was the fact that bars, mainly male patron bars were the first vehicles for the first arcade games.   This bled over to mainstream arcades making arcades and games a "men only thing".  (How ever once again this trend is mainly in the west only as many arcades in Asian countries can be female dominated)  This puts Mr. psychobabble into question. 

 

The whole girls can't play games is such an stupid idea.  Any time I here a guy messing with his girlfriend or another girl about how "girls can't play games"  I see a guy that is threatened easily and insecure. 

 

Mediums like DnD and videos games that offer an escape will always be vehicles to attract a certain type on insecure type of individual. Do to the fact that they offer the kind of escape they desire.    In games its all ego, in my opinion.  Guys like that can easily feel threatened by any one.  You know every one has that one friend who jumps on the chance to brag, and when bragging rights are earned by some one else will go out of there way to destroy it.

For this reason "girls can't play games" is just an easy way to do just that. 

 

In terms of making games I can see two routes. 

1. Play it safe for the money.  Go for the easy sale.  The pros. making an average amount of money is garenteed.  Neg. You can't make any thing really influential and you pass up making a ton of money. 

 

2. Make an original product with a unique twist.   Pros. Something that can make a lot of money, you make it your way.  Neg. More risk

 

In this I listen a lot to Angry Joe. ( http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/bt/aj)

 

I agree, make something new, original to make your mark.  By this point any one that makes something good and unique would make more money than the game makers who make the same "spunkgarglewewe" 

Edited June 19, 2013 by shadowtheman

[† Emotional Outlet]

It's been my impression that unless the movie is obviously horror or action, people tend to view movies with female protags as chick flicks (that is to say, made for women). Granted, I don't watch a lot of movies, so I'm likely mistaken in that regard or my definition of chick flick is different. Because movies are hard, haha.

 

I don't have much interest in superheroes honestly. There's definitely Continuity Lock-Out to contend with, what with the years and years of canon, but then there's eight million reboots and alternate universes. And then there's the whole "you're not a real fan" garbage lodged at women that I've mostly avoided as a gamer (since I play single player games almost exclusively), but am unwilling to put up with in this regard.

 

I can't say I've visited a lot of arcades since I was a preteen, but it's interesting to hear of female dominated arcades. Is there anything about them that attracts female gamers over male gamers, or is it inertia--like for whatever reason it was mostly girls, and then it just kind of stayed that way?

 

I think what the psychobabble quote was indicating (or at least the impression I got--and it's a woman who said that, not a man, haha) was that people tend to view video games as a male-dominated field. It's the whole boys club thing and not wanting to stick out like a sore thumb or make oneself a target in a place where they feel unwelcome. As such, Ms. Pac Man could very well have been enough of a friendly feminine presence for women to consider there might be room for them in gaming.

 

Again, just my interpretation of the quote and what they were getting at, haha.

 

The article touches upon the concept of patriarchal bargaining and how much of a double edged sword it is--that is, while Ms. Pac Man can be argued for as a empowering icon, she's steeped in misogynistic stereotypes and objectification. Is a character who tries to use the patriarchy to their favour in order to obtain some measure of power more feminist than a character who doesn't? I've seen arguments for both sides.

 

Anyway, if there's one thing I like about Tumblr, it's people's tendency to latch onto interesting indie games and spam it all over my dash. I think if I actually followed the indie scene at all instead of waiting for people to bring news to me, I might catch some of these games sooner, haha.

[Nero D. Ace]

Thought I'd post this here, considering it's relevant to the topic -

 

http://kotaku.com/shigeru-miyamoto-and-the-damsel-in-distress-520259897

[shadowtheman]

In female dominated arcades it all comes down on how the arcade is set up and whats popular. Nothing really to it.  To do that here in the states or other similar countries it would take a lot more work.  How ever I have heard of local clubs that are great for this sort of thing.   A lot of people take for granted that other cultures and countries can do things so extremely different from were the currently live. Even studies of this nature can easily forget this, and only talk as if what they say represents the whole of the Earth.  When its clearly not the case. 

 

In terms of comics its a different creature.  Comics have been a more independent medium for a long time.  Depending upon how you look at it comics can be either a boys only thing a great girls only experience.  I'm not a comic book geek my self but now a days female heros are shown a lot better in the comics then the movies.  It's when they translate from one medium to the next things seem to change.