DrumRoll Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 Ok, lets apply this situation to the real world. You speak of rape culture, and I in no way deny its existence and I abhor those would consider inflicting such a violation upon another person. However, if all women were to walk around topless do you think the number of rape incidents would go down or up? And there you have it. Whilst it would be lovely for everyone to let them just hang out, current culture and a males desire ensure the species survival would result in what I believe to be a regressive movement for equal rights. But all this is a moot point unless you can somehow change the human mindset. I mean, I live in the uk and we are a more open minded people than most but if you tried to take your view points to somewhere like the middle east and you might find opposition a tad more excessive than the odd skeptical post on a forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesewheel Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 Ok, lets apply this situation to the real world. You speak of rape culture, and I in no way deny its existence and I abhor those would consider inflicting such a violation upon another person. However, if all women were to walk around topless do you think the number of rape incidents would go down or up? And there you have it. Whilst it would be lovely for everyone to let them just hang out, current culture and a males desire ensure the species survival would result in what I believe to be a regressive movement for equal rights. But all this is a moot point unless you can somehow change the human mindset. I mean, I live in the uk and we are a more open minded people than most but if you tried to take your view points to somewhere like the middle east and you might find opposition a tad more excessive than the odd skeptical post on a forum. How is equalizing rights regressive to the equal rights movement? and how is the status quo a reason for why the status quo can't change? As for how rape statistics would change I don't know, and neither do you. There are many more things that factor into that number than how much breast is being shown and to try to use gut reactions to make a point like that is pretty disingenuous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrumRoll Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 oh, don't go and talk about the status quo! This isn't some government conspiracy to keep all women locked up by chauvinists. I am simply saying what I believe to be common sense. Surely I, a male, should not have to be the one to point this out to you. But hey whatever, go topless. I personally support this idea:) However I am also skeptical of the potential ramifications. oh, and this has been bugging me no end. IF YOU DON'T WEAR A TOP YOU WILL GET COLD! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesewheel Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 Who said anything about a government conspiracy? I'm talking about a predominant and erroneous mindset that says women need to cover up or else they will be raped, and excuses men who act like base animals because they don't know any better. It's a completely backwards mentality. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
† Emotional Outlet Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 Looking in itself is not automatically problematic (and for sure, everyone looks), and I imagine any woman in NYC who chooses to make use of being able to go without a shirt would anticipate drawing a few glances--I imagine it's a thought process people go through already when choosing their outfits for the day. Still, it's NYC. If a topless woman going to be the most interesting or shocking thing a person sees all day, they haven't been there for long, haha. But definitely--no one looks at a shirtless guy and assumes he wants to have sex. There's a guy who goes jogging regularly and his route overlaps the one I take to the library. He often jogs without a shirt. I don't pass by him and think, "THIS GUY WANTS ME." (As an aside, he does do a very kind and considerate thing--when he passes me, he moves off the sidewalk and into the street--this place would be a thousand times more pleasant if more people would take how safe other people feel into consideration.) Anyway, it's not like NYC is some frigid landscape--it can get pretty toasty up there. I doubt there'd be a lot of people who would be especially willing to go without a shirt in the dead of winter, but it's still not much different than choosing to wear shorts in the winter. If a person wants to dress inappropriately for the weather, that's their business. Clothing is not the reason people get assaulted. When a man is sexually assaulted, he's rarely, if ever, asked what he was wearing. That is, if he ever comes forward with the fact that he ever was assaulted, because, thanks to rape culture, people are taught that men "can't be raped" and that men "can't control themselves". Honestly, I doubt anyone but a few outspoken types trying to prove a point would really do it, because yes, people are terrible and they will be targeted. That doesn't mean I don't think it's still a good idea, or that it's not a step in the right direction. People need to think about these things, even if they aren't necessarily applied (that is, even if there isn't a sudden influx of topless women in NYC) and examine their thought processes--why is a woman going shirtless such a threatening thing? The visceral reactions this elicited are extremely telling. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrumRoll Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 (edited) Who said anything about a government conspiracy? I'm talking about a predominant and erroneous mindset that says women need to cover up or else they will be raped, and excuses men who act like base animals because they don't know any better. It's a completely backwards mentality. I agree. I would be a fool to do anything but agree to such a statement as I personally believe that rapists are wretched people-sick people. People who do not see the world as you and I might see it and it only takes slight provocation for their broken minds to come to the conclusion of taking someone and raping them. These people are sick and unfortunately have the perfect disguise, they don't wear badges displaying their intentions. So all I am saying is that in public and among people unknown to you it would be safer to cover up. If you are in the company of friends then it makes no odds what you do. But whilst there are still wars being waged, murders committed and people locked in basements for 10 years....exercise caution. This is all a long way from my original post but my opinion remains the same; I think that any woman walking around semi naked is only inviting trouble. Besides there are many better methods for liberating your sex to be considered before walking about topless. just seen a new reply pop up whilst writing so don't know how relevant my post may even be.... also: welcome to the forum, cheesewheel. Don't worry I am quite sane most of the time;) Edited May 21, 2013 by DrumRoll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
† Emotional Outlet Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 Okay, wait. Not all rapists are sick and broken individuals who need to be eliminated from the planet. That's painting a very simplistic view of what's going on. Rapists are more likely to be known by their victims. The idea of the boogeyman rapist jumping from the bushes just doesn't have much grounding in reality. A rapist is more likely to be a person who thinks they have earned or deserve sex, or someone who wants to punish the other person for any number of perceived slights. This is why we need to examine our thought processes, why we need to examine how we actually view other human beings, because rape isn't just some spooky thing that happens randomly. It's not something you can actually lower your risk for. That fact that rape happens in marriages, and the fact that people argue it's impossible to rape your spouse, is one indication that the issue isn't because people are just crazy. There's a mindset that's driving these actions, and we're all affected by it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkie Pie Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 Please drumroll, continue to tell EO or any other female-gendered person who speaks their mind in here that they're just ~being emotional~ or an ~extreme feminist~. I can only speak for myself, but I find that kind of attitude extremely condescending and extremely rude n_n Also: women being topless in a non-sexual way are asking for a sexual assault? What about the women in the Middle East who wear full burqas and still get raped? The way you're acting in here is extremely telling. What, you can't control yourself when a woman who would be doing something perfectly legal and even socially acceptable [or what /will/ be socially acceptable one day] walks past you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrumRoll Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 *sigh* If you take a step back and look at what you are saying it works out something like 'most men would rape someone if they could but I'm still going to walk around with no shirt on.' I don't even know why I am posting as I have absolutely no idea where this is going and it all seems self defeating. I could walk through a war zone in my underpants should I want to but all I am saying is that-and you yourselves have provided more than enough evidence to support my case- it might end badly. In the end you have to use your own initiative. If 30% of people (who the hell would answer these questions?) admit that they would rape someone if they could get away with it then 1 in every 3 people could be a potential rapist. Perhaps this is the matter to be tackled before anything else....or perhaps women and men should just live in separate communities (no, this is not sarcasm) because for the most part we are incompatible:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkie Pie Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 The main point EO and I are trying to prove is that there's no link between female modesty and the rate of sexual asaults. And neither of us ever /ever/ said that most men would rape if they could. /You/ said that. Not us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesewheel Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 (edited) The issue isn't the danger of rape and the fact that it exists, no one can dispute that. It's the solutions that you're proposing. Women will be safer if they cover up, or inversely if they don't cover up they are putting themselves in danger. Now separate men and women to prevent man/woman rapes while excusing away man/man and woman/woman rapes, and if men or women sneak out of their camps, well, what do we do now? What about married men and women? None of these address the problem in any way; they're band-aids on a gut wound. Meanwhile legalizing public toplessness is a step forward in equalizing our treatment of men and women in society. Will it increase or decrease instances of rape? Probably neither. It's nevertheless a move in the right direction. Also thanks for the welcome Edited May 21, 2013 by cheesewheel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
† Emotional Outlet Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 That's thirty percent of a polled group, not of the entire US population. It's not meant to be a scare tactic, just an attempt to show that there really are people who think this way and to explain that the idea of a boogeyman rapist just isn't grounded in reality. Again, people are far more likely to be assaulted by people they know, by people who think they hold some sort of power over them.Anyway, I don't think we're interpreting the results the same way. I don't read it as "most men would rape if they thought they could get away with it". (Because really, I don't hate men. I think the whole pansexual thing wouldn't really... pan out for me, if I did. Hohoho.)I read it as "there really are people who don't think rape is a big deal". We are taught, as a society, that rape is not a big deal, and that's why rape jokes are so prevalent, why people think it's okay to post things like this on Facebook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrumRoll Posted May 22, 2013 Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 Those facebook posts should be treated like 99.999% of comments on the internet: ignore them. People like that are either spineless or bastards whose opinions don't matter. OR perhaps men truly are the greater species! this utterly non-fictional video may sway your opinion: You see? We invented the plague. Women got nothing on us. But in all seriousness, most people in the UK treat women with equality although I don't know how it might be in the big ol' usa.....Although, country and culture matter very little if you were raised properly. I know that if I was ever unjustly rude to a woman my mum would most likely beat me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
† Emotional Outlet Posted May 22, 2013 Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 I'm not really sure what you mean to prove with a clip from GTA. But yes, properly raising children is important. Kids can understand a lot. That doesn't mean we should give up on trying to educate adults, like somehow it's too late to reverse these mindsets. You seem to acknowledge that those types of sexist comments are widespread, yet you apparently can't see why there might be an issue? You can't see why the fact these comments are so widespread and unchallenged is problematic? Why should it have to be so difficult to use the Internet, much less publicly be a woman on the Internet? The point I'm trying to make is that the people who make these comments, the people who would rape another person if we just called it something else, aren't just "spineless" or "worthless bastards"--they're people who are being fed the same garbage the rest of us are. Rape culture normalises these behaviours and makes people think there's nothing that can be done it because that's just the way it is. It normalises the belief that men "can't control themselves". It normalises abusive behaviours like telling women "TITS OR GTFO", that they should "get back in the kitchen" while everyone else laughs. It reinforces the idea that women can't be funny and the only worth she has is her body and looks. Look at how many people judge female politicians by their appearance rather than their ability to do their job--if they're too pretty, they must be stupid or slept their way to the top. If they're ugly, that's all they can focus on and she also probably used sex as leverage. It normalises actions like telling young teen girls who take pictures of themselves that they're "whores" and self-absorbed, but the moment those same girls express any sort of self-doubt or insecurity, they're immediately stomped on. Whether they're confident or distraught, they're immediately crushed. After all, is there an easier or more common target for ridicule than the average teenaged girl? It normalises the belief that people are entitled to sex. It's why we have people who think doing nice things for women automatically means they deserve something back. It's why we have so many Nice Guys who whine and complain that women are using them and "friendzoning" them, even though they totally spent all that time listening to them complain about their bad boyfriends, helped them fixed their car, helped them move the couch, and totally bought them movie tickets that one time. They keep a tally of everything they've ever done and expect it to be repaid to them in full by way of sex. It's such a widespread message, it's almost at the level of "water is wet" for people. We have been taught to expect these things and when we try to change those things, when we encroach on these people's privilege, they cry foul. They tell us to shut up and sit down, it's not that bad. They tell us "that's just how life is" and that we should "get over it". They tell us to stop rocking the boat. These people aren't automatically "worthless" or inherently awful. They're mistaken and misled. They've been living with privilege! Yes!! Social justice terminology!! But it's true--a lot of the time they just have no idea what's really going on because the current infrastructure benefits them. They see no reason to change something that's good for them! We need to teach them that rape culture and patriarchy is damaging everyone involved. Sitting down and shutting up because "that's the way it is" isn't going to get anything done. We need to make the status quo so unbearable and so insufferable that they have to change it. If we sit and wait patiently for them to notice that other people are suffering, it's just never going to happen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 I have been to nude beaches and its not a big deal to see a pair of tits in public. People are just dumb americans... sad to say but true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
† LimitLess Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 People are just dumb americans... This only applies to Americans BTW Let's educate the world, chicks should be free to flaunt their tits. And then we can move on from there.................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaticX Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 *Topless Women in Public Not Breaking the Law, Says NYPD* Well then, all is good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koby Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 But whatever happened to "no shoes, no shirt, no service"? =P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenshiKeizu Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 (edited) But whatever happened to "no shoes, no shirt, no service"? =PIt only happened that one time!Why am I still banned from the restaurant?! Edited October 7, 2014 by Rockman X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsukumo Yuma Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 But whatever happened to "no shoes, no shirt, no service"? =PIt only happened that one time!Why am I still banned from the restaurant?! Remember the sign in Hooters, Men, no shirt no service, Women, no shirt free food! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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