Suggestions for dealing with spammers

[RikuoAmero]

Hey, normally I just ignore spammers (hell, I spammed myself the very first time I arrived on Kametsu and was then banned), but I think its time we started talking about some action.

I like to visit the Naruto section quite often and I do get excited when I see the titles of threads in bold, meaning there's new posts on them, and potentially something to talk about. However, I always do get a bit pissed when I scan down the names of the latest poster and its all the same poster.

Now, obviously, when we get something like that, they're spamming to quickly get to 15 posts, so as to gain access to the downloads section. So I thought long and hard about this (i.e. about 5 seconds) and I'm going to throw out a suggestion.

How about we cap the number of posts newbies can post, like you have to wait 5/10 minutes between each post, and once they hit, say 20 or 30, remove the cap. Is it possible to do this within the websites programming (I haven't a clue about web code or HTML or whatever)? Is my suggestion too harsh? Let me know what you think.

[lemmingllama]

I think that this would turn away almost all of the site traffic. We wouldnt get any new people, and old people would slowly leave like usual and the forum would die. The way to make this work might be to increase the number of characters per post, at least in boards where people spam a lot like Naruto and the anime one

[ZeroPenguins]

How about just banning newbies all together? xD

Ok I kid.... But what he said is really a good idea, having a time limit between each post can effectively reduce short ass posts like this one lmao

[Koby]

The only issues with the suggestions is that we're still using an outdated version of the forum software from as far back as 2007 and thus, if the features did exist on the newer versions they don't on this one and I can only set a post limit per time for all users in general if I remember correctly (which I set to a low 5 seconds years ago).

Coding something like that into the forum would take more coding ability than I'm capable of at this time. So it's not a viable option, and even the latest version of vBulletin I find to be crap (the whole software turned bad when they sold out to another company).

All we've been doing is, I've been having to look through all new posts every day and delete and suspend spammers. Unfortunately I've never noticed the rest of the staff bothering to do this (it just seems to me that for the most part they just randomly take care of some reports made, which 90% of reports are either lemming making false reports we ignore or something simple like an accidental double post). On an average day I tend to have to delete 50 posts between 4-5 spammers who are just trying to access the downloads.

It doesn't help that the quality of the posts of the non-spammers is near spammer level to begin with though. Heck, the forum is about Anime, yet no one seems to care to actually talk about anime seriously. The seasonal board rather than speak about the series on a weekly basis about the episode, people just randomly post 'this is a good show', etc... No matter what I've done, or how I post, no one seems to really try and help or follow suit to improve the forum. Occasionally some people post suggestions saying this or that could be done, but when it comes time to actually do this or that, that person isn't there to help ensure it goes as planned either.

[Renzourin]

i do actually look for spam you know i look for patterns and i do check the new posts though apparently i dont find 50 posts a day but then you know while i can get blatant spam your absolutely right its very very hard to determine whats spam and whats not on most topics when their damn near spam level to begin with its like do i delete this one or do i delete this one? i mean shit i just leave it to you to make a better decision and i do answer some reports here and there i usually leave the moving and double posting to the super mods see how long it would take one of them to pick it up whilei go hunting for more but the main reason you dont see me do more work? im not here most of the day i stop by every other hour take a quick look around check the new posts check the most spammed in topics then hop out and go about my business

[† Emotional Outlet]

It is somewhat difficult for me to take a hardline against spam when the forum is somewhat inactive. I certainly don't wish to deter people from posting by being stringent on post quality. If it were more active, I would be more willing to bring the book down on borderline material. (These twelve hour shifts are eating my brain, holy cow. Weekend, please come sooner.)

Even in threads like "Listen to the Song Above" that specifically ask for some sort of minor input to only one post, I find some people aren't actually responding to the song above them--some are blatantly ignoring the song above them to just post their own. Just another casualty of people being somewhat liberal with their post quality to get their numbers up. Unfortunately, I can't help much in the anime department because I just don't watch it, haha. It does seem unusual to me that people are having a hard time finding things to say about shows. With the web comics I read, I usually have something to say about it, even if the update is really minor.

Perhaps an increased character limit would be beneficial, seeing as this isn't Twitter. The only place that would really "suffer" is the forum games, which people circumvent anyway by having side discussions. People should be able to figure out how to write one paragraph for their posts--it's not like you're going to get left behind if you don't post fast enough like in a chatroom. Even in the member photos thread, you can still have discussions. When I used to post a thousand pictures on there, I'd always have a story of the day to share with the pictures, haha. I am somewhat forgiving of thread derailing and side conversations, since that, to me, is what a forum is about. Unfortunately, it seems people are neglecting the social aspect of it in favour of the downloads, which is quite unfortunate. I really do like talking with almost everyone here, even when I'm in a grumpy mood from work.

I do find, however, that I am suffering from some sort of laziness that making it difficult for me to read longer passages, which might be the reason why we're getting a lot of short, meaningless posts. I've read articles talking all this doomsday stuff about Twitter and texting and how the fast-paced, nigh instantaneous nature of the Internet is making people more impatient and therefore terser with their communication. On my part, I don't know if that's a side effect of my depression or I'm just hyperlazy or I'm a victim of this fast-paced world, haha. (I'm rambling and need to sleep.)

[ZeroPenguins]

90% of reports are either lemming making false reports we ignore

lemming

false reports

we ignore

LOL you hear that lemming!? You shouldn't even bother in the first place xD

[Subman®]

I'll weigh in on this. As a Admin myself I have to rely on my Mods to nail the spammers. I use about 5 active Mods that are in different time zones so I have good coverage. I also had a programmer offer to make a script to alert(pm) the Admins and Mods if someone posted a set number of posts in a period of time that is used. <My site uses the forumotion software>

Banning of the user, IP, or even a IP range ban may have to ensue.(in that order if required, IP range ban was a last resort)

[lemmingllama]

LOL you hear that lemming!? You shouldn't even bother in the first place xD

Since I got a lovely half page message saying to stop report by Shazi, I now try only to report double posts and identical threads. So sorry if that is not appreciated, I can stop using the report button if you mods want me to stop

[† Anras Rune]

The only issues with the suggestions is that we're still using an outdated version of the forum software from as far back as 2007 and thus, if the features did exist on the newer versions they don't on this one and I can only set a post limit per time for all users in general if I remember correctly (which I set to a low 5 seconds years ago).

Coding something like that into the forum would take more coding ability than I'm capable of at this time. So it's not a viable option, and even the latest version of vBulletin I find to be crap (the whole software turned bad when they sold out to another company).

All we've been doing is, I've been having to look through all new posts every day and delete and suspend spammers. Unfortunately I've never noticed the rest of the staff bothering to do this (it just seems to me that for the most part they just randomly take care of some reports made, which 90% of reports are either lemming making false reports we ignore or something simple like an accidental double post). On an average day I tend to have to delete 50 posts between 4-5 spammers who are just trying to access the downloads.

It doesn't help that the quality of the posts of the non-spammers is near spammer level to begin with though. Heck, the forum is about Anime, yet no one seems to care to actually talk about anime seriously. The seasonal board rather than speak about the series on a weekly basis about the episode, people just randomly post 'this is a good show', etc... No matter what I've done, or how I post, no one seems to really try and help or follow suit to improve the forum. Occasionally some people post suggestions saying this or that could be done, but when it comes time to actually do this or that, that person isn't there to help ensure it goes as planned either.

well if thats the situation with the spamming why not just hire new staff? I've had conversations with you on this in the past, as I'm sure many folks have. Most mods these days seem to be having problems or are focused on other stuff. Not meaning to sound like a power grabber or anything and I ain't calling folks out, but if it ain't working then get folks that will. *discreetly throws his name out there* lmfao

But seriously, a change in the way spamming is managed may be better. I am on at least once or twice day, and everytime I press on "New Posts" there seems to be a drove of spammish stuff in all sections, except maybe the lit section and balamb. A lot of the time, as mentioned, its in the anime specific sections like naruto, which really doesnt interest me at all. but even when I do take the time to read some of these posts, I cringe. A higher limit wouldn't neccesarily work, as some of the posts are just "this anime is the best" the a slew of smilies and those hideous big smilies till the character count is fufilled.

As for the quality of nonspammer posts, I have noticed the degradation of a lot of the forum quality, mostly due to this. All the vets from when I first joined seemed to have gone, lots of very interesting people just up and leaving. People like JC and DuLake had the mako reactor at its best not to long ago, but their personal lives pulled them away. Another example would be the lit section, when I first joined the place was heaving, between Joker, Iki, Mae, Shazi, Raz and a few folks I'll likely remember later, the place was good. Now there is a lot less posting going on too the point that my new story ain't had a comment (go on, you know you want too....lol) which wouldn't have happened with anyones story a while ago. Same with the graphics section. It's a shame, but thats the forums we live in.

[ZeroPenguins]

Since I got a lovely half page message saying to stop report by Shazi, I now try only to report double posts and identical threads. So sorry if that is not appreciated, I can stop using the report button if you mods want me to stop

Hahaha, don't take it too seriously. I'm sure they didn't mean anything by it, you didn't had any bad intentions.

[Koby]

I tried hiring new staff. I contacted 5 people, but they all turned down the job. The thing is, I need people who I can trust to be responsible with the mod abilities, but at the same time be actively posting around the forum. Those type of members are in extremely short supply since for the most part, it's just n00bs posting. The n00bs and spammers are about the only thing that has kept this forum alive the past year because the regulars either left, got drawn away into life, or just visit every day but are too lazy to post because they got use to just spamming the CB every day (and since the CB was removed, they stopped visiting the site).

[† Anras Rune]

wow koby, brutal. But I must agree. I was suprised at the amount of folks that seemed to stop coming on the forum due to the cb removal...but you knew that was possible when you went through with it. Some folks that assured they would still come on and are now nowhere to be found. I never knew about you getting turned down on staff requests....ouch. I can see where you are coming from in that case, with the essentials lol. Would imagine there ain't too many like that around...

Anyhoo, back on the thread subject, I did wonder if there isn't an autoreport system? Something like a approval system, where new members' posts must be verified before counting. Or is there not any sort of feature like that on vbulletin?

[Koby]

wow koby, brutal. But I must agree. I was suprised at the amount of folks that seemed to stop coming on the forum due to the cb removal...but you knew that was possible when you went through with it. Some folks that assured they would still come on and are now nowhere to be found. I never knew about you getting turned down on staff requests....ouch. I can see where you are coming from in that case, with the essentials lol. Would imagine there ain't too many like that around...

Anyhoo, back on the thread subject, I did wonder if there isn't an autoreport system? Something like a approval system, where new members' posts must be verified before counting. Or is there not any sort of feature like that on vbulletin?

I honestly don't care that some people left just cause the CB was removed, because that just means they weren't here for the forum to begin with. The CB isn't coming back just to please a few butthurt members who didn't contribute to the forum in the first place. The people who were somewhat here for the community have been fine with the switch to IRC, in fact we've been averaging 45-60 people online the IRC channel at all times.

We don't have anything like that, although we do have something similar, but it only works against actual spambots or those suspected of being a spambot. It checks the Akismet database for known spambot email addresses, usernames, and posting styles. As well as puts the posts in mod queue that is suspected of being spam, it often catches those spambots advertising crap. Though of course some make it through and we report it to the database. However this doesn't do anything for those that don't fit the bill, such as those just spamming goofy replies, etc.. for post boosting. Not really anyway we could automate judging post quality.

I could set it so all new members posts have to be accepted by mods until they reach x-amount of posts I believe. However that'd put a lot of work on the staff to constantly accept hundreds of posts a day, etc.. and well Shazi just retired from being staff, as well as other staff cutbacks have left staffing in short supply. So adding more workload to an already short staff isn't an ideal situation.

[† Anras Rune]

I see. I think I knew about the asim thing, could've sworn you, or someone had mentioned it before. Also, didnt know bout shazi til now :/

Well, there isn't a way that you could do a sort of rating system, where anyone.under the minimum posts is required to get good ratings to be upgraded? I understand it would be pretty complicated to do the verification thing, especially if your understafffed. Other than recruiting more staff you could do a jury system/mod, where a larger staff group (you could have something like ten or more) that only judge new members via there posts, and upgrade them. I dont know if you can do that with the forum, but I reckon if possible you could potentially relieve a staff stretched thin.

[atreyuavenged]

Sometimes the hard part about posting is finding something unique to say. Usually by the time I read a board, Koby or someone else has already said my opinion or what I think and my posting would just be redundant. More often then not that reduces me to saying, "Yeah, I liked this show, etc" which people are not very fond of.

[† Emotional Outlet]

If people start spamming smilies to break the character limit, then that's fine with me, since doing so would take it out of that vague borderline area and put it clearly in the "spam" area. That's a definite indication that they don't care to share their opinions and are only doing what they think they have to. It also makes it remarkably easy to moderate. "Oh, here's a person who posted a string of twenty smilies. Delete. Here's a person who wrote fifteen periods after every other word. Delete. This person just said the word 'very' a dozen times in a row and nothing else. Delete."

When a core group of regular posters emerge, then the character limit can be dropped (if necessary), since the overall atmosphere would potentially deter people from just posting garbage posts. And I agree, the atmosphere does seem to pull in those simple "I like Naruto and Sasuke's hot and Sakura is dumb and I like trains" posts.

Being afraid that your opinion is redundant isn't going to do you any favours! I've resigned myself to the fact that very little I say is actually original and that no matter how original other people think they are, it always sounds familiar. That shouldn't stop you from expressing yourself, because even though the basic idea of your post may be as simple as "I like that show", the supporting details, the combination of reasons that resulted in your liking of the show may be unique in and of itself. Yes, you may like the show like other people do, but maybe you disagree that the music takes away from the quality and atmosphere of it, or that you disagree that its strongest point are plot twists and not characterisation.

You can reduce most everything anyone says into one or two sentences, but just because you can doesn't mean you should or that it diminishes the importance and relevance of their message.

If I need to be more stringent on post quality, I can certainly try. I just need to know how strict I need to be, because I'm more than willing to terminate posts that can't even muster a dozen words into a coherent sentence. I just don't want people to be deterred from posting because I'm stalking them in the middle of the night and nuking their posts, haha.

EDIT: If I may suggest, can we either nuke the SeeD Hallway or just make a giant newbie thread like other fora do? It already doesn't count towards post counts. Just my one cent, haha.

EDIT2: Do posts in the download section count towards total posts? I see a lot of "thanks, this is great" posts and am reluctant to delete them unless given further notice. I want people to express their appreciation for the uploaders, but not at the cost of them spamming "thanks, this is great" everywhere.

[Koby]

Do posts in the download section count towards total posts? I see a lot of "thanks, this is great" posts and am reluctant to delete them unless given further notice. I want people to express their appreciation for the uploaders, but not at the cost of them spamming "thanks, this is great" everywhere.

Yes, but a simple thank you is actually encouraged there to show your appreciation and support for the uploader. The thing is less than 1% of the people who download from a thread actually say anything at all. We've had some uploaders get upset for people not acknowledging the work they do and opted to stop sharing or leave because of it. Considering the time it takes in uploading the least the downloader can do is say thanks.

Given the download section is a core part of the community and many of the uploaders ONLY post and hang out there, I felt it would be wrong to disable post count there. I usually just disable post count in boards that are less relevant for discussions or easily spammed.

[† Emotional Outlet]

Haha, okay. That's why I was reluctant because there aren't that MANY of those posts (as you well know), it's just that they don't hold any content. A couple fora I go to have done away with "thanks, this is great" posts and have reduced it to either a "thanks" button or, more sarcastically, a sound clip of a sheep baaing, largely because the "thanks" posts were burying posts that invited discussion or were actually worth responding to.

I would like to add that if you want to make new members go through a moderation queue, I'm willing to accept the workload. It doesn't take that much time to read through the posts and determine which ones are worth letting through. It would be a burden, sure, but if people keep finding their posts aren't getting through and they keep getting messages from staff saying that they need to address the quality of their posts, they'll either leave or get the hint and shape up. It would also make up cleaning up around the forum easier since fewer crappy posts would be getting through. As of now, it's almost Sisyphean to try to cull the crap posts--they crop up almost as soon as you delete them. I'll keep trying, though, until we figure something out.

Of course, I can only speak for myself, haha. I admit that on my work sets I often disappear, but I try to hop on in the morning after shift if I'm on the early mission. My weekends, however, tend to be spent at home. (Oh, how I yearn for my terminal leave.) People get sucked in by life all the time--I don't think you're going to find very many people who never have that happen to them that also perform well as staff.

I wanted to do boring crap no one wants to do (like splitting off the crap threads into the new subforum and cleaning up the old downloads section), so moderating a bunch of stupid posts falls in line with doing boring crap no one wants to do, haha. I do feel a bit aimless at the moment, which may or may not be a result of the somewhat aimless nature I've had to adopt at work (here, let's listen to static for twelve hours straight and try not to go crazy).

Edit: Also, in terms of hiring new staff, are you hiring them for individual sub-fora or as super mods? I think being a moderator for one sub-forum wouldn't be too much work, and they can sort the queue for their sub-forum, can't they? I am digging around and trying to nuke stupid posts, but it is a bit... overwhelming.

[gun-dam]

While I agree this is an issue, like the first response said this would definitely turn off potential traffic, but technically the solution you offered is certainly possible.