Latest Naruto Manga Discussion [Spoiler]

[amitkumar101]

lol idk what was name of madara's brother so i just searched it and look what i found http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/t434/letmelogin01/OTHER%20PNG/f5a77a5e.jpg

Edited August 30, 2012 by amitkumar101

[janimek]

ive been checking a few manga discussion threads, and wow, the hatred (though present everywhere) seems more here than anywhere else.. it makes me feel like im the only one who actually liked the chapter O_O

i felt that the chapter was presented in a great way, to make us actually feel the impact of tobi being obito, and if kishi has a good explanation up his sleeve (which im pretty sure he has, considering i feel he planned this from the very beginning, before he wrote gaiden), things will only get better from here

[Leviathan]

OK let's consider what you are saying: Kishi can explain Tobi really being Obito.

I am going to show you why Kishi can't do it. Obito was shown to die being crushed under a huge boulder. His right side was completely under the boulder and you don't need to be einstein to realize the condition of his bones and organs under such mass. Not only that, more rocks fell over his body and literally buried him. Now, let's say by some miraculous feat Obito survived. Why would he become the villain he is now? Why would he want to destroy the leaf, take over the world? Because he lost his crush Rin to Kakashi? I doubt it, not only me, i believe every person in the forum would consider it to be really shitty. So no matter from which angle you see, a gentle and fun guy like Obito never had any reason to become Tobi. Ok, let's even consider for some goddamm reason Obito became Tobi, then i would like kishi (and probably you too, seeing you really liked Tobi=Obito) to explain these things.

1. Tobi attacked the leaf with the Kyubi and fought Minato 12 years prior to the beginning of the series. Now considering Minato got Kushina pregnant after the battle of the Kanabi bridge, there can at max be a time period of nine months between the Kyubi attack and Obito being crushed under the rock. How in the world did Obito, a twelve year old boy (have i got the age right) become Tobi, a man probably in his mid thirties just in 9 months?

2. Madara when revived showed signs that he knew of Tobi's existence and work. Now Madara could only have done that if and only if he was around the time when the third shinobi world war took place. Now the war took place about 50 years (again have i got this right) after Madara's disappearance. How could he have lived for so long? And even if he did why would he work with a child?

3. Tobi was shown to be present during the time when Kisame was recruited for Akatsuki. Again aging and size problems comes here showing that Tobi couldn't have been Obito.

I can go on and on with plot holes which Kishi can't explain without pulling an "Obito of alternate dimension" scenario but i will stop here. But if Kishi does pull this scenario, i ask you, will naruto remain the same as it was? Is this what people wanted to see? I would like you to reconsider and really understand the impact of making a gentle preteen boy into a villainous criminal.

[saminyt]

Since we've come up with countless theories in the past, why not a last one. I still believe that Tobi is a remnant of Madara inside Obito's body (Leviathan's theory) . But this still leaves some plot holes. So i am posting my own version of it in brief:

1. After being defeated by Hashirama, Madara fled with Hashirama's cells and on a later time acquired the rinnegan.

2. Rinnegan + Hashirama's cells = Inhuman abilities (one of these abilities must have been super long life span since he met Nagato in the past)

3. So when Tobi told Konan that he was the one who influenced Nagato to form the Akatsuki, it wasn't the current Tobi but was Madara (let's call him the first Tobi). Trust me, it will add up in the end.

4. But soon after these events, Madara's life starts to fade. With his creation of all things, Madara creates the zetsu. Now after Madara dies, Zetsu (now carrying Madara's memory) acts as the second tobi who is ordered by Madara to revive him when the time comes.

See Manga chapter 560, page 2

Here Madara is referring to Zetsu, his creation. He was going to be revived in a different way, but Kabuto came into the middle.

5. Now lets go to the Obito incident. Team Minato are on their mission to end the war. But Zetsu is also there. And the reason why Minato could not sense him might be duo to Zetsu's ability to become one with the earth. Now Obito is crushed in a ton of boulders. Now many people are saying that being able to restore Obito's body is a plot hole. But I do not consider this one. Zetsu has Hashirama's cells and we know what kind of medical miracles it can perform. So Zetsu fuses a part of himself with Obito's crushed part. And I'm guessing since his other eye wasn't destroyed for a long period of time, the cells were strong enough to restore it.

Now the main plot hole here is why choose Obito. But since it's already revealed to be Obito, we have no say in this. So I will leave it to Kishi to tell us a believable reason for choosing Obito's body(And there must have been a good reason for it. My next point will explain a little bit more on this).

6. Upon fusing with Obito, Zetsu transfers Madara's memories into Obito's mind thus creating the final Tobi that we all know. Now this is where it gets really messy. There is maximum 9 months interval between this events and the events of Tobi's fight with Minato (where he is a grown up)

Now any theories explaining this will be a speculation. But still, the one I am thinking right now is pretty believable.

Tobi is able to control the time flow of the other dimension as well. It is the true power of the Kamui. Now let's go with that. Obito's body now has Madara's memory upto the time he died. This practically makes him Madara. But still, Obito is nothing special other than the fact that his sharingan has one of the most unique and useful power. Now, Zetsu must have known that somehow. For this reason, Obito was chosen. Now, Madara's remnant has Obito's eyes but his body is nowehre strong enough to accomplish Madara's plans. Just Madara's remnant inside Obito was enough to unlock the Kamui's true power. So Tobi goes into the other dimension, trains there for years in a different time frame (I pretty much stole it from DBZ) and when his body finally becomes strong enough he comes out. In this way, even in 9 months, Tobi from a 12 year old boy becomes a middle aged man.

7. The rest is pretty easy to grasp so I won't bother explaining more.

Well, I did speculate this entire event but this looks like a believable scenario to me.

Edited August 30, 2012 by saminyt

[janimek]

firstly, just cause i liked the chapter doesnt mean i liked tobi=obito.. its really disheartening (dunno if thats the word best used here) to see a happy guy become that evil, but i dont think, that was a spot-of-the-moment decision... im sure kishi has had it planned ever since kaka gaiden that obito would be tobi, so the mode of obito's 'death', his actions, everything was made such that he would have an explanation in the next few chapters

however, the chapter was still brilliant, and one of the better flashbacks ive seen

next, there are atleast 3-4 years between obito's death and tobi's attack on the 4th.. this can be confirmed by kakashi's age... he was 13 years old when obito was trampled by rocks and 27-28 at the start of the series(i dunno if the exact number was confirmed), f you subtract nauto's age, that makes kakashi 16 or 17 at the time of 9tailed attack, and same with obito...

if subjected to a harsh life, one can seem very mature by that time .. and we never got a proper account of tobi's age so a late teenager is possible, maybe with some genjutsu?

additionally, the incidence of 2 tobis is not an impossibility

i feel these are the asics kishi can explain the storyline by... i will admit if he cannot explain it, i would probably ragequit naruto, but we havent given him a chance

this manga's design was so well planned that i do feel he knows what he's doing

[RikuoAmero]

firstly, just cause i liked the chapter doesnt mean i liked tobi=obito.. its really disheartening (dunno if thats the word best used here) to see a happy guy become that evil, but i dont think, that was a spot-of-the-moment decision... im sure kishi has had it planned ever since kaka gaiden that obito would be tobi, so the mode of obito's 'death', his actions, everything was made such that he would have an explanation in the next few chapters

however, the chapter was still brilliant, and one of the better flashbacks ive seen

next, there are atleast 3-4 years between obito's death and tobi's attack on the 4th.. this can be confirmed by kakashi's age... he was 13 years old when obito was trampled by rocks and 27-28 at the start of the series(i dunno if the exact number was confirmed), f you subtract nauto's age, that makes kakashi 16 or 17 at the time of 9tailed attack, and same with obito...

if subjected to a harsh life, one can seem very mature by that time .. and we never got a proper account of tobi's age so a late teenager is possible, maybe with some genjutsu?

additionally, the incidence of 2 tobis is not an impossibility

i feel these are the asics kishi can explain the storyline by... i will admit if he cannot explain it, i would probably ragequit naruto, but we havent given him a chance

this manga's design was so well planned that i do feel he knows what he's doing

Kakashi was 26-27 at the very start of Naruto. Subtract Naruto's age (12-13) at that time, and you get 13-14. We know Kakashi was 13 when he was promoted to Jonin and that his first mission as a Jonin was the Kannabi Bridge, so at most 9 months pass between then and the attempted theft of Kyuubi (9 months being the average length of time a woman carries a baby); although it is entirely possible it could have been as short as a week, since we don't know exactly when Naruto was conceived.

[janimek]

i dont remember there being any proof that kushina became pregnant at the same time of kanabi bridge

naruto was 12, kakashi for the sake of maths was 27, that still gives 2 years, which i admit is low (i estimated kaka's age higher than it should have been), which more favours there being a first tobi, who fought minato , cause i would assume tobi would know of minatos abilities better

[Leviathan]

Since we've come up with countless theories in the past, why not a last one. I still believe that Tobi is a remnant of Madara inside Obito's body (Leviathan's theory) . But this still leaves some plot holes. So i am posting my own version of it in brief:

1. After being defeated by Hashirama, Madara fled with Hashirama's cells and on a later time acquired the rinnegan.

2. Rinnegan + Hashirama's cells = Inhuman abilities (one of these abilities must have been super long life span since he met Nagato in the past)

3. So when Tobi told Konan that he was the one who influenced Nagato to form the Akatsuki, it wasn't the current Tobi but was Madara (let's call him the first Tobi). Trust me, it will add up in the end.

4. But soon after these events, Madara's life starts to fade. With his creation of all things, Madara creates the zetsu. Now after Madara dies, Zetsu (now carrying Madara's memory) acts as the second tobi who is ordered by Madara to revive him when the time comes.

See Manga chapter 560, page 2

Here Madara is referring to Zetsu, his creation. He was going to be revived in a different way, but Kabuto came into the middle.

5. Now lets go to the Obito incident. Team Minato are on their mission to end the war. But Zetsu is also there. And the reason why Minato could not sense him might be duo to Zetsu's ability to become one with the earth. Now Obito is crushed in a ton of boulders. Now many people are saying that being able to restore Obito's body is a plot hole. But I do not consider this one. Zetsu has Hashirama's cells and we know what kind of medical miracles it can perform. So Zetsu fuses a part of himself with Obito's crushed part. And I'm guessing since his other eye wasn't destroyed for a long period of time, the cells were strong enough to restore it.

Now the main plot hole here is why choose Obito. But since it's already revealed to be Obito, we have no say in this. So I will leave it to Kishi to tell us a believable reason for choosing Obito's body(And there must have been a good reason for it. My next point will explain a little bit more on this).

6. Upon fusing with Obito, Zetsu transfers Madara's memories into Obito's mind thus creating the final Tobi that we all know. Now this is where it gets really messy. There is maximum 9 months interval between this events and the events of Tobi's fight with Minato (where he is a grown up)

Now any theories explaining this will be a speculation. But still, the one I am thinking right now is pretty believable.

Tobi is able to control the time flow of the other dimension as well. It is the true power of the Kamui. Now let's go with that. Obito's body now has Madara's memory upto the time he died. This practically makes him Madara. But still, Obito is nothing special other than the fact that his sharingan has one of the most unique and useful power. Now, Zetsu must have known that somehow. For this reason, Obito was chosen. Now, Madara's remnant has Obito's eyes but his body is nowehre strong enough to accomplish Madara's plans. Just Madara's remnant inside Obito was enough to unlock the Kamui's true power. So Tobi goes into the other dimension, trains there for years in a different time frame (I pretty much stole it from DBZ) and when his body finally becomes strong enough he comes out. In this way, even in 9 months, Tobi from a 12 year old boy becomes a middle aged man.

7. The rest is pretty easy to grasp so I won't bother explaining more.

Well, I did speculate this entire event but this looks like a believable scenario to me.

Well this is a possible theory, but it has too many plot holes for my taste. Sorry man i already considered something like this when i was giving my theory and it was a failure. I am going to point out the limitations here.

1. Manga chapter 560, pg 2 : http://www.mangaread...et/naruto/560/2

From the conversation we can easily say that Madara is NOT talking about Zetsu but Tobi. You can see Kabuto say "i am "his" supporter". Now Kabuto rarely had any interaction with Zetsu, he mainly talked and planned with Tobi, thus making it clear that Madara is also talking about Tobi.

2. Neither Tobi nor Zetsu has Hashirama's cells. Proof? If even one of them had Hashirama's cells, then they wouldn't have had to capture Yamato to make the white zetsu army stronger.

3. Even if Obito had got Madara's memories, why would he want to become Tobi? There have been clear examples where we can see that Obito was very much aware of his own memories. What was in Madara's memories which tempted him to become Tobi? Madara lived in an era of war and chaos and it was war which took obito's life, is that what made him like this? Pretty weak but still a possibility. Ok, let's say something was there which made obito think of creating a new world, since he is aware of his own memories and actions the logical decision would be to go back to konoha, show off his new power to the hokage and ask him to give him a top spot from where he can act towards his goal in a positive way. (Ok, i seriously stole it from code geass). I know this explains a lot, but Obito couldn't have become Tobi while he had his own memories intact.

4. In your theory you have completely ignored this data : http://www.mangaread...et/naruto/559/2

You can see that Madara was expecting Nagato to be the one to revive him and not zetsu. Now how can it be unless he gave nagato the rinnegan or he found out nagato with rinnegan, whichever it is, after finding nagato it would be top priority to protect and support nagato. Let's say zetsu was created for this purpose, then following your theory, the question arises: why did zetsu fuse with obito.

5. Another point you have ignored is the fact that Tobi had a sharingan in his left eye too. Well it can be easily explained, so this ain't much of a plot hole.

6. You are saying Obito/Tobi went into the Kamui dimension and trained there for a long period of time. There is only one problem here. Kamui doesnot control time. Can you show me one example where Tobi manipulated time with it? The Kamui dimension is basically a huge empty storage ground. According to you time flows faster in the Kamui dimension, but if that is true then Sasuke, Karin, and Danzo' bodygaurds would be dead by the time they entered and exited the dimension. Here's a rough calculation.

Sasuke and Karin were sucked into the Kamui dimension in the 5 kage summit. Now let's say they were in there for 1 hour. Now here comes the maths.

Let's say the time between Obito being crushed and Kyubi attack is 1 year. And let's say Tobi/Obito was 32 years old when he fought Minato. So from that sense we can say that

1 year in real world = 20 in Kamui dimension

12 months= 20 x 12 months in KD

1 month = 20 months in KD

30 days = 20 x 30 days in KD

1 day = 20 days in KD

24 hours = 20 x 24 hours in KD

1 hour = 20 hours in KD

Are you seriously suggesting that Sasuke and Karin was stuck in goddamn dimension for almost 20 hours without food and water and came out alive? May i remind you that Sasuke was really beaten up at that time and would need more than chakra to keep him alive. Ok, let's say they did survive 20 hours in that dimension, the first they would say after coming out would be "WHERE THE HELL DID YOU SEND US, WE HAVE BEEN STUCK THERE FOR A DAY AND NOW WE ARE STARVING". Ok, let's even say Sasuke and Karin weren't feeling hungry, it still doesn't explain how Danzo' bodyguards survived in that dimension for such a long period of time.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Leviathan

[saminyt]

Well this is a possible theory, but it has too many plot holes for my taste. Sorry man i already considered something like this when i was giving my theory and it was a failure. I am going to point out the limitations here.

1. Manga chapter 560, pg 2 : http://www.mangaread...et/naruto/560/2

From the conversation we can easily say that Madara is NOT talking about Zetsu but Tobi. You can see Kabuto say "i am "his" supporter". Now Kabuto rarely had any interaction with Zetsu, he mainly talked and planned with Tobi, thus making it clear that Madara is also talking about Tobi.

2. Neither Tobi nor Zetsu has Hashirama's cells. Proof? If even one of them had Hashirama's cells, then they wouldn't have had to capture Yamato to make the white zetsu army stronger.

3. Even if Obito had got Madara's memories, why would he want to become Tobi? There have been clear examples where we can see that Obito was very much aware of his own memories. What was in Madara's memories which tempted him to become Tobi? Madara lived in an era of war and chaos and it was war which took obito's life, is that what made him like this? Pretty weak but still a possibility. Ok, let's say something was there which made obito think of creating a new world, since he is aware of his own memories and actions the logical decision would be to go back to konoha, show off his new power to the hokage and ask him to give him a top spot from where he can act towards his goal in a positive way. (Ok, i seriously stole it from code geass). I know this explains a lot, but Obito couldn't have become Tobi while he had his own memories intact.

4. In your theory you have completely ignored this data : http://www.mangaread...et/naruto/559/2

You can see that Madara was expecting Nagato to be the one to revive him and not zetsu. Now how can it be unless he gave nagato the rinnegan or he found out nagato with rinnegan, whichever it is, after finding nagato it would be top priority to protect and support nagato. Let's say zetsu was created for this purpose, then following your theory, the question arises: why did zetsu fuse with obito.

5. Another point you have ignored is the fact that Tobi had a sharingan in his left eye too. Well it can be easily explained, so this ain't much of a plot hole.

6. You are saying Obito/Tobi went into the Kamui dimension and trained there for a long period of time. There is only one problem here. Kamui doesnot control time. Can you show me one example where Tobi manipulated time with it? The Kamui dimension is basically a huge empty storage ground. According to you time flows faster in the Kamui dimension, but if that is true then Sasuke, Karin, and Danzo' bodygaurds would be dead by the time they entered and exited the dimension. Here's a rough calculation.

Sasuke and Karin were sucked into the Kamui dimension in the 5 kage summit. Now let's say they were in there for 1 hour. Now here comes the maths.

Let's say the time between Obito being crushed and Kyubi attack is 1 year. And let's say Tobi/Obito was 32 years old when he fought Minato. So from that sense we can say that

1 year in real world = 20 in Kamui dimension

12 months= 20 x 12 months in KD

1 month = 20 months in KD

30 days = 20 x 30 days in KD

1 day = 20 days in KD

24 hours = 20 x 24 hours in KD

1 hour = 20 hours in KD

Are you seriously suggesting that Sasuke and Karin was stuck in goddamn dimension for almost 20 hours without food and water and came out alive? May i remind you that Sasuke was really beaten up at that time and would need more than chakra to keep him alive. Ok, let's say they did survive 20 hours in that dimension, the first they would say after coming out would be "WHERE THE HELL DID YOU SEND US, WE HAVE BEEN STUCK THERE FOR A DAY AND NOW WE ARE STARVING". Ok, let's even say Sasuke and Karin weren't feeling hungry, it still doesn't explain how Danzo' bodyguards survived in that dimension for such a long period of time.

What u wrote here are all facts. Thanks for your comment on the topic. But I was thinking about it a little differently. Here, let me show u:

1. Madara is thinking about Zetsu but not the one we know now. The Zetsu containing Madara's memories and the current Tobi are the same inside. So when I said Zetsu, I was actually talking about Madara's remnant which was inside Zetsu and later transferred into Obito's body.

2. The reason for not having the cells might be because Zetsu used them to revive Obito's body.

3. That's the whole point. Obito has no say in this. Madara's remnant has full control over Obito's mind and body. So he also has all of Obito's memories. Everything is being done by Madara's remnant, not Obito.

4. Yes, this is something I totally forgot. My timing of the events are wrong here. In order to create Zetsu, Madara needs the rinnegan. But if he created Zetsu after meeting Nagato then he wouldn't have the rinnegan anymore.

Okay, I will change something here>

Madara before dying creates Zetsu and implants his memories. Then Zetsu takes his rinnegan eyes and gives them to Nagato as a baby/child. Zetsu (Madara's remnant inside) inspires Yahiko to create the Akatsuki. This can explain why Tobi told Konan that he was the one behind the creation of the Akatsuki (He was pointing at his inside self, not the outside)

And why fuse with Obito: I can't answer that, nobody can. But Obito has already been revealed so our hands are tied. I can say a good reason why Zetsu would want to fuse with another Uchiha: To preserve Madara's remnant in a strong Uchiha with strong ocular powers to complete his Moon's eye plan. But why pick Obito, I can't answer that.

5. The left eye is obviously taken from another Uchiha since it can't be turned off and Obito's left eye is with Kakashi.

6. That's the thing. I'm not saying time flows differently there, I'm saying Tobi can control the time flow. And this is a complete speculation on my part so of course there won't be an example. But if Kishi were to introduce this fact now, no one could oppose him. Just think about it. We saw Tobi use space time technique similar to Kamui with just his normal sharingan and he also told that Kakashi's Kamui was nothing like the real one. So, what exactly is Tobi's mangekyou power?

I am proposing it has the power to control the time flow in the other dimension. That's how he travels huge distances in a matter of seconds. He goes to the other dimension using his normal sharingan, activates Kamui to extend the time there, heads off to his desired location and creates havoc.

And don't say that by doing so, he will eventually grow old. Coz travelling in that manner for his whole life could cost at max 5-10 years which doesn't make that much of a difference.

Well, that's all I have to say. And I request u to find the flaws in this one as well. And feel free to share any improvements to this theory.

Edited August 31, 2012 by saminyt

[Leviathan]

Well this is a possible theory, but it has too many plot holes for my taste. Sorry man i already considered something like this when i was giving my theory and it was a failure. I am going to point out the limitations here.

1. Manga chapter 560, pg 2 : http://www.mangaread...et/naruto/560/2

From the conversation we can easily say that Madara is NOT talking about Zetsu but Tobi. You can see Kabuto say "i am "his" supporter". Now Kabuto rarely had any interaction with Zetsu, he mainly talked and planned with Tobi, thus making it clear that Madara is also talking about Tobi.

2. Neither Tobi nor Zetsu has Hashirama's cells. Proof? If even one of them had Hashirama's cells, then they wouldn't have had to capture Yamato to make the white zetsu army stronger.

3. Even if Obito had got Madara's memories, why would he want to become Tobi? There have been clear examples where we can see that Obito was very much aware of his own memories. What was in Madara's memories which tempted him to become Tobi? Madara lived in an era of war and chaos and it was war which took obito's life, is that what made him like this? Pretty weak but still a possibility. Ok, let's say something was there which made obito think of creating a new world, since he is aware of his own memories and actions the logical decision would be to go back to konoha, show off his new power to the hokage and ask him to give him a top spot from where he can act towards his goal in a positive way. (Ok, i seriously stole it from code geass). I know this explains a lot, but Obito couldn't have become Tobi while he had his own memories intact.

4. In your theory you have completely ignored this data : http://www.mangaread...et/naruto/559/2

You can see that Madara was expecting Nagato to be the one to revive him and not zetsu. Now how can it be unless he gave nagato the rinnegan or he found out nagato with rinnegan, whichever it is, after finding nagato it would be top priority to protect and support nagato. Let's say zetsu was created for this purpose, then following your theory, the question arises: why did zetsu fuse with obito.

5. Another point you have ignored is the fact that Tobi had a sharingan in his left eye too. Well it can be easily explained, so this ain't much of a plot hole.

6. You are saying Obito/Tobi went into the Kamui dimension and trained there for a long period of time. There is only one problem here. Kamui doesnot control time. Can you show me one example where Tobi manipulated time with it? The Kamui dimension is basically a huge empty storage ground. According to you time flows faster in the Kamui dimension, but if that is true then Sasuke, Karin, and Danzo' bodygaurds would be dead by the time they entered and exited the dimension. Here's a rough calculation.

Sasuke and Karin were sucked into the Kamui dimension in the 5 kage summit. Now let's say they were in there for 1 hour. Now here comes the maths.

Let's say the time between Obito being crushed and Kyubi attack is 1 year. And let's say Tobi/Obito was 32 years old when he fought Minato. So from that sense we can say that

1 year in real world = 20 in Kamui dimension

12 months= 20 x 12 months in KD

1 month = 20 months in KD

30 days = 20 x 30 days in KD

1 day = 20 days in KD

24 hours = 20 x 24 hours in KD

1 hour = 20 hours in KD

Are you seriously suggesting that Sasuke and Karin was stuck in goddamn dimension for almost 20 hours without food and water and came out alive? May i remind you that Sasuke was really beaten up at that time and would need more than chakra to keep him alive. Ok, let's say they did survive 20 hours in that dimension, the first they would say after coming out would be "WHERE THE HELL DID YOU SEND US, WE HAVE BEEN STUCK THERE FOR A DAY AND NOW WE ARE STARVING". Ok, let's even say Sasuke and Karin weren't feeling hungry, it still doesn't explain how Danzo' bodyguards survived in that dimension for such a long period of time.

What u wrote here are all facts. Thanks for your comment on the topic. But I was thinking about it a little differently. Here, let me show u:

1. Madara is thinking about Zetsu but not the one we know now. The Zetsu containing Madara's memories and the current Tobi are the same inside. So when I said Zetsu, I was actually talking about Madara's remnant which was inside Zetsu and later transferred into Obito's body.

2. The reason for not having the cells might be because Zetsu used them to revive Obito's body.

3. That's the whole point. Obito has no say in this. Madara's remnant has full control over Obito's mind and body. So he also has all of Obito's memories. Everything is being done by Madara's remnant, not Obito.

4. Yes, this is something I totally forgot. My timing of the events are wrong here. In order to create Zetsu, Madara needs the rinnegan. But if he created Zetsu after meeting Nagato then he wouldn't have the rinnegan anymore.

Okay, I will change something here>

Madara before dying creates Zetsu and implants his memories. Then Zetsu takes his rinnegan eyes and gives them to Nagato as a baby/child. Zetsu (Madara's remnant inside) inspires Yahiko to create the Akatsuki. This can explain why Tobi told Konan that he was the one behind the creation of the Akatsuki (He was pointing at his inside self, not the outside)

And why fuse with Obito: I can't answer that, nobody can. But Obito has already been revealed so our hands are tied. I can say a good reason why Zetsu would want to fuse with another Uchiha: To preserve Madara's remnant in a strong Uchiha with strong ocular powers to complete his Moon's eye plan. But why pick Obito, I can't answer that.

5. The left eye is obviously taken from another Uchiha since it can't be turned off and Obito's left eye is with Kakashi.

6. That's the thing. I'm not saying time flows differently there, I'm saying Tobi can control the time flow. And this is a complete speculation on my part so of course there won't be an example. But if Kishi were to introduce this fact now, no one could oppose him. Just think about it. We saw Tobi use space time technique similar to Kamui with just his normal sharingan and he also told that Kakashi's Kamui was nothing like the real one. So, what exactly is Tobi's mangekyou power?

I am proposing it has the power to control the time flow in the other dimension. That's how he travels huge distances in a matter of seconds. He goes to the other dimension using his normal sharingan, activates Kamui to extend the time there, heads off to his desired location and creates havoc.

And don't say that by doing so, he will eventually grow old. Coz travelling in that manner for his whole life could cost at max 5-10 years which doesn't make that much of a difference.

Well, that's all I have to say. And I request u to find the flaws in this one as well. And feel free to share any improvements to this theory.

1. So you are saying that Madara created Zetsu as 2nd Madara and then Zetsu fused with Obito to become Tobi or 3rd Madara. Now if you are right then that would mean that 1st Madara never planned for 3rd madara, seeing he already had nagato with rinnegan to revive him. Then why in the world would zetsu fuse with obito in the first place. And don't say zetsu knew of obito's sharingan's ability coz that would be really absurd.

2. Are you out of your mind?? Cells never behave like that. Once zetsu would fuse with obito, hashirama's cell's would start dividing at a crazy rate thus healing obito. But would that result in the disappearance of hashirama's cells? Ofcourse not. This is basic biology for god's sake. Even the part of zetsu which would not have fused with obito would have hashirama's cells.

3. So you are saying, that because madara's cells are inside obito, obito lost his independence both physically and mentally and obito has the same memories as madara. I don't know, Danzo had hashirama's cells but he didn't have hashirama's memories, nor did he look like he was under someone else's control. The only reason i might accept this point is because an anomaly, zetsu, is present here.

4. Possible considering madara created zetsu, but contradicting the basis of your theory: Zetsu fused with Obito. If zetsu was to give nagato the rinnegan then why did he fuse with obito

5. Problem solved

6. There's some problems here. First of all, may i remind you that Tobi can only stay inside his dimension for 5 min at a length. Also the space time technique granted by his mangekyo gives him two powers:

a. Intangibility (goes in the other dimension or send things there)

b. Teleportation (moves through the dimension at an alarming speed)

Now the expanding time part can only be true for the teleportation part. Because if he could expand time in his "intangibility" part he would have been able to escape konan's paper bombs. You are trying to explain tobi's aging and size in one year gap with the "entering kamui dimension" scenario. Unfortunately, kishi has already said that tobi can stay at his dimension for maximum 5 min at a length.

7. Now, this is something i forgot to mention in my first post, so i will be doing it now. Remember when kisame was recruited for akatsuki, tobi showed him his face. Kisame knew immediately who he was dealing with. But now that the face behind the mask have been revealed to belong to obito, that would mean it was the original madara who confronted kisame. But that would be completely wrong coz

a. Akatsuki was created a lot later, according to your theory by Tobi or 3rd Madara

b. Madara Uchiha himself would never have created akatsuki, he had no reason whatsoever.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Leviathan

[saminyt]

1. So you are saying that Madara created Zetsu as 2nd Madara and then Zetsu fused with Obito to become Tobi or 3rd Madara. Now if you are right then that would mean that 1st Madara never planned for 3rd madara, seeing he already had nagato with rinnegan to revive him. Then why in the world would zetsu fuse with obito in the first place. And don't say zetsu knew of obito's sharingan's ability coz that would be really absurd.

2. Are you out of your mind?? Cells never behave like that. Once zetsu would fuse with obito, hashirama's cell's would start dividing at a crazy rate thus healing obito. But would that result in the disappearance of hashirama's cells? Ofcourse not. This is basic biology for god's sake. Even the part of zetsu which would not have fused with obito would have hashirama's cells.

3. So you are saying, that because madara's cells are inside obito, obito lost his independence both physically and mentally and obito has the same memories as madara. I don't know, Danzo had hashirama's cells but he didn't have hashirama's memories, nor did he look like he was under someone else's control. The only reason i might accept this point is because an anomaly, zetsu, is present here.

4. Possible considering madara created zetsu, but contradicting the basis of your theory: Zetsu fused with Obito. If zetsu was to give nagato the rinnegan then why did he fuse with obito

5. Problem solved

6. There's some problems here. First of all, may i remind you that Tobi can only stay inside his dimension for 5 min at a length. Also the space time technique granted by his mangekyo gives him two powers:

a. Intangibility (goes in the other dimension or send things there)

b. Teleportation (moves through the dimension at an alarming speed)

Now the expanding time part can only be true for the teleportation part. Because if he could expand time in his "intangibility" part he would have been able to escape konan's paper bombs. You are trying to explain tobi's aging and size in one year gap with the "entering kamui dimension" scenario. Unfortunately, kishi has already said that tobi can stay at his dimension for maximum 5 min at a length.

7. Now, this is something i forgot to mention in my first post, so i will be doing it now. Remember when kisame was recruited for akatsuki, tobi showed him his face. Kisame knew immediately who he was dealing with. But now that the face behind the mask have been revealed to belong to obito, that would mean it was the original madara who confronted kisame. But that would be completely wrong coz

a. Akatsuki was created a lot later, according to your theory by Tobi or 3rd Madara

b. Madara Uchiha himself would never have created akatsuki, he had no reason whatsoever.

1. I already answered this part. Zetsu was given orders to find a suitable uchiha for Madara's remnant. But why he chose Obito can never be explained.

2. Animes do not always follow biology u know. Okay, lets go with your reasoning shall we. U r saying once Hashirama's cells enter a body, the cells can be extracted at any time. So white zetsu was created by Hasirama's cells. So in that logic, Tobi already had his hands on the cells. So why did he need to get the cells from Yamato.

3. Nope, it's not because of the cells. It's like this, Obito was dead/near death to begin with. Madara's remnant went inside and took over his body. U can compare it with Orochimaru's body takeover.

4. Nagato was given the rinnegan to gather the bijuus chakra in the Gedo Mazo, but Madara's remnant still needed an Uchiha body to complete the Moon's eye plan. And again I'm saying, no one but kishis knows why the hell Obito was chosen.

5.

6. The first power u mentioned is of his normal sharingan. His mangekyou powers haven't been shown yet. When Tobi teleports from one place to another, no one can actually see whether he uses mangekyou or normal sharingan.

And if my speculation is correct, the super fast teleportation can be activated with his mangekyou which is infact slowing down time inside the Kamui world. And the time difference on the outside world would be only five minutes.

7. You should have added this point from the beginning so that I wouldn't have had to brainstorm so much. It's official now, this plot hole can't be removed by any logic. Say Madara did appear before Kisame, so why did he have to wear a mask with one hole. He doesn't have a transplanted eye like Obito.

Anyways, so much for my trying to save Naruto some humiliation. I guess I will kick Naruto out of my favorite list now.

[Leviathan]

1. So you are saying that Madara created Zetsu as 2nd Madara and then Zetsu fused with Obito to become Tobi or 3rd Madara. Now if you are right then that would mean that 1st Madara never planned for 3rd madara, seeing he already had nagato with rinnegan to revive him. Then why in the world would zetsu fuse with obito in the first place. And don't say zetsu knew of obito's sharingan's ability coz that would be really absurd.

2. Are you out of your mind?? Cells never behave like that. Once zetsu would fuse with obito, hashirama's cell's would start dividing at a crazy rate thus healing obito. But would that result in the disappearance of hashirama's cells? Ofcourse not. This is basic biology for god's sake. Even the part of zetsu which would not have fused with obito would have hashirama's cells.

3. So you are saying, that because madara's cells are inside obito, obito lost his independence both physically and mentally and obito has the same memories as madara. I don't know, Danzo had hashirama's cells but he didn't have hashirama's memories, nor did he look like he was under someone else's control. The only reason i might accept this point is because an anomaly, zetsu, is present here.

4. Possible considering madara created zetsu, but contradicting the basis of your theory: Zetsu fused with Obito. If zetsu was to give nagato the rinnegan then why did he fuse with obito

5. Problem solved

6. There's some problems here. First of all, may i remind you that Tobi can only stay inside his dimension for 5 min at a length. Also the space time technique granted by his mangekyo gives him two powers:

a. Intangibility (goes in the other dimension or send things there)

b. Teleportation (moves through the dimension at an alarming speed)

Now the expanding time part can only be true for the teleportation part. Because if he could expand time in his "intangibility" part he would have been able to escape konan's paper bombs. You are trying to explain tobi's aging and size in one year gap with the "entering kamui dimension" scenario. Unfortunately, kishi has already said that tobi can stay at his dimension for maximum 5 min at a length.

7. Now, this is something i forgot to mention in my first post, so i will be doing it now. Remember when kisame was recruited for akatsuki, tobi showed him his face. Kisame knew immediately who he was dealing with. But now that the face behind the mask have been revealed to belong to obito, that would mean it was the original madara who confronted kisame. But that would be completely wrong coz

a. Akatsuki was created a lot later, according to your theory by Tobi or 3rd Madara

b. Madara Uchiha himself would never have created akatsuki, he had no reason whatsoever.

1. I already answered this part. Zetsu was given orders to find a suitable uchiha for Madara's remnant. But why he chose Obito can never be explained.

2. Animes do not always follow biology u know. Okay, lets go with your reasoning shall we. U r saying once Hashirama's cells enter a body, the cells can be extracted at any time. So white zetsu was created by Hasirama's cells. So in that logic, Tobi already had his hands on the cells. So why did he need to get the cells from Yamato.

3. Nope, it's not because of the cells. It's like this, Obito was dead/near death to begin with. Madara's remnant went inside and took over his body. U can compare it with Orochimaru's body takeover.

4. Nagato was given the rinnegan to gather the bijuus chakra in the Gedo Mazo, but Madara's remnant still needed an Uchiha body to complete the Moon's eye plan. And again I'm saying, no one but kishis knows why the hell Obito was chosen.

5.

6. The first power u mentioned is of his normal sharingan. His mangekyou powers haven't been shown yet. When Tobi teleports from one place to another, no one can actually see whether he uses mangekyou or normal sharingan.

And if my speculation is correct, the super fast teleportation can be activated with his mangekyou which is infact slowing down time inside the Kamui world. And the time difference on the outside world would be only five minutes.

7. You should have added this point from the beginning so that I wouldn't have had to brainstorm so much. It's official now, this plot hole can't be removed by any logic. Say Madara did appear before Kisame, so why did he have to wear a mask with one hole. He doesn't have a transplanted eye like Obito.

Anyways, so much for my trying to save Naruto some humiliation. I guess I will kick Naruto out of my favorite list now.

1. Um...Ok, that should make sense. But yeah, picking obito was lame.

2. Are you asking me? Coz i can explain this part, i was just seeing if you could. Infact if i remember correctly i did once explain it to you.

3.Ok, that's a theory. But my theory on remnant madara taking over obito's body with the Fushigi Tensei was better. Shame it didn't work out. Damn you kishi.

4. This part of the theory is in my sense perfect except ofcourse picking obito.

5. ........

6. You should know me by now Saminyt. When i am speculating i always say i am speculating and in this case i am not speculating. Check it out here: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Tobi

That space time jutsu is tobi's mangekyo ability.

7. Sorry, i forgot. (Man, all it took was one point to disapprove the theory completely, didn't it?)

Oh, i gave up saving naruto the moment i read the last page of the latest chapter. And what?? You didn't kick it out yet? I am surprised, but what can i say, you were an hardcore fan after all.

[Kyle_Dimetri]

I swear, i fucking swear, if Kishi says that it is Obito but being controlled under a jutsu (especially if it is a sharingan jutsu or another reanimation shit) I'm done with Naruto.

[Kinara Uzumaki]

I think I gave up thinking about different theories a long time ago and just let the story unfold on its own.......even with its twists and turns.........I kinda expected Obita Uchiha to be behind the mask.........although whether it's actually him (no reason why) or someone else is another story.

[DeathTheKid]

I just don't understand how it can be Obito. He attacked the village just a few years after his supposed death. Yet he seemed older than 16-18 based on Kakshi and Guy. Within those years he was able to surpass the 4th Hokage Minato?

I guess I'll just have to wait and see how Kishi explains everything over the next few weeks.

[Bardon]

I can go on and on with plot holes which Kishi can't explain without pulling an "Obito of alternate dimension" scenario but i will stop here. But if Kishi does pull this scenario, i ask you, will naruto remain the same as it was? Is this what people wanted to see? I would like you to reconsider and really understand the impact of making a gentle preteen boy into a villainous criminal.

Considering how kishi has already pulled that card with this movie, yeah....I wouldn't be too surprised if he decides to throw one for canon. >>

Not saying that I'd be fond of it though, I STILL want to believe that this is just zetsudara (yes Imma gonna call him that) taking obito's remains simply coz he was the easiest substitute to acquire at the time. Its not completely unbelievable that due to certain reasons zetsudara couldn't get a uchiha directly from the village, like maybe coz he didn't want to either create unneeded attention of a missing ninja or that he couldn't afford to pass his time pretending to be someone in the village. Having two tomoe sharingan means jack, a sharingan is still a sharingan and this is BEFORE the uchiha clan massacre hence not yet having any collection. If zetsudara/pein were somehow able to create extra rinnegan eyes for their six paths then obviously making a mangekyo isn't such a big feet.

Actually you know what, its no longer about what I want to believe......this is actually the only "logical" thing I can come up with. I fail to see why kishi would dump on his work like that, and yes thats aside from the confusing details/errors shown in last chapter's flashback.

If this chapter doesn't explain it then well.....guess I'm just gonna have to pretend the whole kakashi gaiden was a lie.... =P lol (j/k)

Oh and inb4 kishi decides to troll us again by redirecting back to sasuke and orochimaru. (unless it is orochimaru who tells us himself what madara/zetsudara really are)

[Leviathan]

Here's the link to naruto manga chapter 600: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/600

Ok, we have all been eagerly waiting for this chapter, to see what kishi has to say for himself. And frankly i am not impressed. The reason why obito became tobi is because Kakashi let RIn die. Well that's hard to swallow, because that only covers motive (and not a good one either). So, if this obito is the actual obito and not someone from the another dimension then a lot questions remain unanswered and many plot holes are created, like the age and size problem when tobi fought minato. Ok, on the brighter side it seems the action just got more interesting here. It seems Madara himself has arrived here to take on Naruto and the gang....but that leaves one question: what happened to the kages?

[Koby]

and we thought Kishimoto couldn't get any stupider pulling some major plot hole. Now he tells us that Obito's entire motive of destroying the world is simply because Kakashi didn't protect Rin. How is that in any way, a reason to destroy an entire world? How does that in any way explain how he is still in this world? How does that in any way fix any plot hole? How does that in any way explain how he went from like 12 years old with a 2-tomoe and a crappy fighter to being a grown man capable of matching Minato and controlling the Ninetails in less than a years time? How does this explain Obito's knowledge of Nagato, the Rinnegan, etc.. that ALL happened BEFORE he was ever born? He has specific knowledge as if he was in the war before Obito was ever born. It's physically and mentally impossible that Tobi=Obito.

These motives aren't even motives.

[Bardon]

..............oh no you didn't kishi.....OH GODDAMN NO U DIDN'T!!!

Once again, a joke of a prediction turning out true......its not even about being too obvious now, this is just utterly ridiculous! o__O

Its like some retarded fan abducted our sensei and is forcing him to sabotage his work.... =P

*takes a deep breath*

This is not over yet....at least I hope not, the motive surely has to be much much bigger than THIS....

Tobi/obito/whoever has proven to be a lying troll since the moment he's introduced himself as madara, I still remember the amount of BS he fed to sasuke and everyone else in the manga. He didn't survive anything, that much I'm certain and I still cling onto my theory of him fusing with a zetsu.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Bardon

[-Zero-]

"It's because...you let Rin die"

What the HELL?? What kind of an excuse is that for destroying the world, or rather subjugating it?

Kishi, you crazy ass bastard....

Just watch next chapter, if If continous with this amount of absurdness, next thing you know, Madara's gonna say: "Obito is my son".......

Edited September 5, 2012 by SeraphZero