Gun Violence and Gun Control

[† L4ugh]

^ Sounds a lot like the problems we have with our health care. That wasn't really the answer I was after though. 

 

Would a mentally unstable person who wants treatment, get the treatment they need? In this country, that answer is far too often no. It's why I think our problem has more to do with the insane difference between those that have and those that have not. People here are utterly pissed at how unfair this country has become and are starting to strike out because of it. Guns just happen to be a very easy way for them to express their rage.

[DrumRoll]

It's England. We're ALL mentally unstable so the system works out.

[Koby]

Image pretty much has it spot on:

 

[† L4ugh]

While I completely agree with the statement that image makes, I do believe there is some kind of permit needed to buy large amounts of fertilizer. I'm not a farmer so I don't know for sure, but I remember having a similar discussion about this with a farmer. He said it's not as easy to buy as it once was, and that's because of McVeigh. Pipe bombs are a quick trip to Walmart though, and both could be made by anyone who is willing enough to kill large amounts of people. All it really requires is the same means that criminals use to purchase guns in states that have tighter gun laws, MONEY. Even scarier would be someone with a large amount of ricin and a willingness to use it.

 

Killing people is easy, finding a way to protect people without locking everyone up is the hard part.

[DrumRoll]

Image pretty much has it spot on:

 

 

GARRRR KOBY YOU MAKE ME SO ANGRY!

 

JUST WAIT RIGHT THERE WHILE I GO ORDER FERTILISER, FUEL AND MY TRUCK! THEN I'M GONNA TEACH YOU THE MEANING OF......hey, where'd you go?

 

(I should probably point out, due to some members of this site being a tad literal, that the above is a joke) 

 

But yeah, I understand Koby's point. I mean me and my dad used to make bombs out of weed killer and powdered sugar. BUT it s not an impulse weapon. Unlike a gun, which you might go and grab in a state of rage, heedless of the consequences.

 

 

[theplunger]

Half of gun violence can be solved if two other issues were solved.  The drug war must stop and poverty must end.  Disarming people wont work.  

[DrumRoll]

Half of gun violence can be solved if two other issues were solved.  The drug war must stop and poverty must end.  Disarming people wont work.  

Yes, we must shoot these poverty-ridden crackheads.

[TRUNKSvsCELL]

i believe gun control is nothing more then government control. no1 but the government is secure.

[ElementalCards]

What I don't seem to get is why gun violence is considered acceptable in fiction (tv shows, movies, etc) while "hot stuff" is not.

Edited February 3, 2014 by ElementalCards

[Dragooon]

Being from Texas I have a couple of guns of my own. (I hunt sometimes) Having them in the house definitely makes me feel more secure. A lot of other countries have banned guns for the general public. Example is Britain. They had a good decrease in violent crimes after banning firearms. And now they judge the U.S. for not banning them.

 

They just don't understand the relationship Americans have with guns. I mean hell, it's in our constitution.

 

I just feel like even if you ban guns, people will get them somehow. And those who want to do harm will do harm regardless. Better everyone have a gun rather than just the criminals.

[TRUNKSvsCELL]

Being from Texas I have a couple of guns of my own. (I hunt sometimes) Having them in the house definitely makes me feel more secure. A lot of other countries have banned guns for the general public. Example is Britain. They had a good decrease in violent crimes after banning firearms. And now they judge the U.S. for not banning them.

 

They just don't understand the relationship Americans have with guns. I mean hell, it's in our constitution.

 

I just feel like even if you ban guns, people will get them somehow. And those who want to do harm will do harm regardless. Better everyone have a gun rather than just the criminals.

That's what i believe also.

Edited June 5, 2014 by TRUNKSvsCELL

[RabbitBones]

That's a common belief in America. I live in Texas, but I'm from New England (specifically CT but I've lived in several states)... the value system is so different it's shocking. My family owns guns. They hunt. And they're die-hard believers in their right to said guns.  
Rifles aren't so much my problem as the fact that you can legally by machine guns as a civilian.
What the hell is your excuse for needing one of those? Rifle? Hunter. Pistol? Self defense. Machine gun? ... unless you're a sociopath, I really can't think of a good reason.

 

[† LimitLess]

Our country has one of the highest crime rate because of guns. People can freakin buy them at the mall.

 

Guns are useless, I know a guy who used to own a gun. They broke into his home, he had the gun in his hand, he shot at the thugs, one of the guys pulls his gun and shoots back. Now he is dead, sad but true.

[Dragooon]

The problem is not the guns. The problem is the ability to buy a gun with no proper training or knowledge of how to use it.

and I agree that you shouldn't be able to buy a fucking machine gun as a civilian.....

 

I know how to handle a gun, I have handled them since I was a kid. You shouldn't be able to buy any firearm without going through the proper safety training first. 

[† LimitLess]

The point is, if he didn't have a gun, it wouldn't have been used and they would have just took some stuff. The guy would have still kept his life.

 

Why didn't they kill his wife?

[HeavenlyClassic]

bleh

Edited June 10, 2014 by HeavenlyClassic

[TRUNKSvsCELL]

Any form of gun control is bad.

[Koby]

Gun Control & Gun Laws are not the answer, and the only ones who think they are don't have a clue how the world works.

Firstly, who obeys laws? Law-abiding citizens.
Why do people feel control is needed? Criminals, mass-murderers.

Regardless of how many laws you write on paper, it isn't going to get the people that ignore them to actually obey them.

Disarming law-abiding citizens is the opposite of what should be done.

Congrats, you just disarmed the guy who could have shot the killer and saved your life.

 

People aren't even bothering to address the real issue.
If someone wants to kill someone they'll do it, period.
So, they get pissed off and don't have a gun? A bat, a knife, or a tire iron would work just as well.

Is your solution really to ban anything that could possibly be used for murder?
Better ban pencils; people have been stabbed to death with them.

If you read the articles; in the US in 2014 only 8% of crimes involved a gun (and less than half of those were cases where the gun was actually used to shoot someone). 40% of criminals in prison who were surveyed said they didn't break into a home or do something bad somewhere because they knew the home owner owned a gun.

The best place to attack/rob is a place that advertises their lack of defense.

I've been around guns and owned guns all my life; and most of my friends have too.. and I've never known a single person personally who has been shot or shot at, or killed by a gun.

If laws are made, they'll only be followed by law abiding citizens. It's impossible to force criminals to obey. It's impossible to stop them from getting guns. Look at the war on drugs. It's been a total failure and they've not stopped anything. The government just threw money away and lost. Drugs won. Laws are written by idiots who hope people will obey the piece of paper they're written on.

Even if such laws were made; they're not going to be able to take the guns of those who currently own them. Hell there is no record of me owning any gun, so they'd never even be able to trace any to me or be able to find them; yet here I am with loads of them.

 

The 'sheeples' think writing something on a piece of paper is going to stop criminals.

We have to only look at the 'war on drugs' to see how big of a failure that is.

No matter how strict a law is; it's not going to make it any harder to obtain a gun through illegal means. There is so many unregistered guns in the US as-is that if another gun was never made again; criminals would still be able to obtain guns for decades on the black market. Criminals would just steal a gun from those who had one legally if nothing else.

All any possible control or law would do would be to limit a law-abiding citizen's access.

They've been unable to stop people from doing anything. Heck look at the war on piracy. Sites offering downloads are numerous as heck and many out in the open still offering illegal goods; despite laws being made telling people it's illegal to share copyrighted material. Has those laws stopped you? Nope.

 

How is taking away the means to acquire a gun legally, going to stop those who are willing to obtain them illegally? No matter how strict you make it on obtaining them via legal means; it will not affect the ability to obtain them illegally. You can not police illegal activity. So all you're suggesting is making it hard or impossible on those who want to go the legal route; while doing nothing to stop the illegal route which I'll stress again is impossible to tackle.

Again, not a single attempt at stopping anything else has worked. Not a single law or control has been the answer or solution to any other problem the government has tried to tackle. It is impossible to stop someone from doing something outside of the law and it's ignorant to believe it's possible.

Furthermore, how do you expect to clean up the country of all the guns already out there? How are you going to force people to admit they even have a gun, how many, location stored, serial number, etc? It's not possible to locate and remove the billions of guns out there.

I'll guarantee you if they ever pass such a law; they won't know I have guns or where they are.

 

The common responses from those wanting to do away with guns is basically 'ban this, it'll make criminals stop'. So you admit you understand criminals won't obey, but you still believe a ban will force them to.

Do you not realize that the very definition of 'force' means you're not free. This contradicts the very thing the US is proud of: freedom. You don't want freedom. Anything that doesn't fit your very own ideals you're trying to force feed them into acting how you want. People don't work that way.

Unlike smaller countries that have never had a problem with guns going and banning them; it simply won't work here in the US. Too much money is in guns for the US to outright ban them. Too many are out there already to get rid of. Even if gun production was to stop tomorrow and a ban be placed into effect; there is enough guns already in our borders that are unaccounted for that they'll be selling on the black markets for decades. Add to the fact that those people, including a lot of those who own guns legally will not give up their guns.

Also, is the US government prepared to pay the citizens for their guns before they take them? Let's see the US government fork over another trillion dollars just to buy up the guns from those willing to sell theirs.

Peace doesn't come from taking away people's freedom by writing down words on a piece of paper. In fact quite the opposite. History shows when you start taking away the freedom of the people, you'll get a war. Most of the South would likely succeed from the US if a complete ban on guns were to take effect. I know for one the Texas government has already been in talks about it.

There is no realistic way of preventing anyone from getting a gun in their hand if their goal is obtain one. Passing more strict laws again, only effects those going through legal channels. Laws cannot and will not stop the illegal channels. Again history has proven this. Again, look at the war on drugs. Total failure. History has shown perfectly well how well it works when you try to remove the rights of the people. History has shown full well how well it works when you try to tell someone they can't do something. History shows full well that what's written on paper is and will be ignored by those willing to do what they want regardless what the law says. There is no argument to be had on that front.

The people killing with a gun will simply use something else if they can't obtain a gun. You can't ban everything in existence. Like Rewire said; people make bombs out of fertilizer which do a lot more damage. Are you going to ban fertilizer and the ability to plant vegetables too? Are you going to ban pencils because someone got stabbed to death with one? Banning a tool does not and will never = peace.

Opps guns are banned, better put this down and beat this guy to death with the baseball bat I have. Stab him with scissors, slit his throat with a knife, run him over with a car, push him off a cliff (yelp better ban mountains or anything with more than a 20 foot drop).

Again, you're outright refusing to look at the actual problem. Your solution is to ban the tool, but ignore the problem that caused it in the first place. We need better ways of managing, diagnosing, and treating those with mental issues rather than start taking away freedoms from everyone as a whole because of the failure to properly address an issue that needs addressed.

[cheez]

https://youtu.be/0rR9IaXH1M0

https://youtu.be/a9UFyNy-rw4

Edited October 10, 2015 by cheez

[Natalie]

I'll throw my 2c in. I think the US should restrict access to firearms with safety lesson, and a mental health clearance. Following those they can be given a firearm license and be able to purchase a weapon in said class (kinda like a driver's license). This should be a federal thing, not state by state. This should also come with a permit reapplication every year, along with some sort of check that said firearms are stored in a safe (eh, this one I'm kinda iffy on tbh but w/e).

 

The biggest problem honestly is, is that people with unchecked mental issues are able to acquire guns either from a friend, or a family member.  Or even able to straight up able to purchase a weapon. The Aurora theatre shooting could've been prevented with said checks in place, the shooter was able to purchase weapons from a store even with homicidal tendencies. There's something VERY wrong there. There's also a small tid bit that the US leads the world in mass shootings, many of the shooters were people with mental illness. That's a statement on both how easy it is to acquire the guns, but also a statement on how you guys treat mental illness (although I can't say it's any better here..).

 

The Aurora theatre shooting could've been prevented by a mental health check in place, so if James went to purchase a weapon and failed that check, his psychiatrists could've been notified at that point and be placed in a care home. It's even more tragic that he essentially was looking for help but there was no where to turn. The system failed him, along with the lives that he took and altered.

 

Gun Control & Gun Laws are not the answer, and the only ones who think they are don't have a clue how the world works.

Firstly, who obeys laws? Law-abiding citizens.
Why do people feel control is needed? Criminals, mass-murderers.

Regardless of how many laws you write on paper, it isn't going to get the people that ignore them to actually obey them.

Disarming law-abiding citizens is the opposite of what should be done.

Congrats, you just disarmed the guy who could have shot the killer and saved your life.

 

I 100% agree with that with gang related violence and acts of terrorism, those guys have the channels to acquire guns (usually from theft). Your argument falls apart with what I said above. People with mental health issues can be dissuaded from acquire a gun by proper gun storage or a better mental health check up. I disagree with actually taking guns away from people, cause that'll NEVER work, but I think there should be more checks in place in the future. 

 

You can also make the argument that gun violence has been lessened in the US over the past couple years, but it really doesn't account for the amount of people that die in mass shootings. Or by the amount of massacres there has been in the US lately. The number of mass shootings in the US has tripled since 2011, in contrast overall gun violence has been curbed over the past two decades. Mass shootings are still a problem, the only way to fix it is by noticing a pattern and placing things to prevent it from happening again.  You can't exactly prevent every case, but some are preventable. Even being able to prevent one, can save many lives.

 

So let's recap, who are the shooters committing these shooting sprees? Mostly people with mental illness. How would we curb it? Limiting gun access and increasing aid to those in need. 

 

Honestly the amount of exposure that crimes get nowadays is way way too much and really makes a huge deal out of everything for months. But I think mass shootings and gun laws should be looked at very seriously in the US, because they go hand in hand a lot of the times.  A tripling in such cases is very serious despite gun violence going down. 

 

I understand a strong stance on the matter, but no one is saying to outright ban firearms. No country besides a few (like Japan I think) has. 

Edited September 28, 2015 by Natalie